CAM Belt gone at 80K - ouch
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! buzzlite's Avatar
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    Default CAM Belt gone at 80K - ouch

    http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...n-48486217.htm

    $7000 what is the price of a rebuild ??????

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzlite
    http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...n-48486217.htm

    $7000 what is the price of a rebuild ??????
    Looking at the pics, the head is already off, hope its included. Rebuild depends how many valves are bent, probably just a vrs with headgasket, new valves, new headbolts, new cambelt, probably do waterpump and tensioners and that would just about get her running again.

    Dave


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    1000+ Posts kermit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzlite
    http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...n-48486217.htm

    $7000 what is the price of a rebuild ??????
    Budget for $2k minimum.
    Cheers Simon
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    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    It would depend on how many valves are bent, yes but also the amount of damage to corresponding pistons. That is where the $$$ could go if the damage is serious. Find a wrecked 306 and swap the engine.
    How different from a standard 306 is the GTi6 donk? Would just a cam change be in order?
    Looks like a well used 306 too. Lots of battle scars, but I suppose it is 9yo. What do other '97 306GTi6's look like by comparison?
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  5. #5
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    ouch

    i have a belt change due soon

    how difficult is it? i wouldnt say i am a mechanical novice (have restored a couple of cars) but then again i wouldnt want to mess this up...

  6. #6
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    i had a belt go in a honda once. what a mess it made! the head of the valve snapped right off and knocked a hole through the top of the piston in about 10 seconds before it stopped! I would price up a second hand engine and a gti 6 at that! .
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  7. #7
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    I rebuilt a XU10J4RS recently. the customer supplied the parts themself at just over AU$1000 (which i think he payed too much for):
    Main & Rod bearings, Rings, VRS kit, Head gasket, 8 valves, cambelt, water pump.

    $200 for head disassembly,machining & reassembly
    and 6-8hrs refitting head = about $500

    if the pistons are holed or have valve heads embedded in them it might cost $600 for pistons
    3-4hrs to get engine out, 1 day to strip it and machine & 1 day to reassemble with all the parts stated above + refitting.
    Any pistons that are not holed, even if they have big indents, are perfectly serviceable.

    If you search out the parts yourself i think you could getaway with AU$1500 for just the head work.
    If it's a full rebuild, AU$2500 to $3000 max.
    Price depends on piston damage, valve damage and lifter damage.

    You can successfully get away with reusing the headbolts, (at least 3 times, maybe more, i haven't snapped one yet), but don't be a cheapass.
    A rebuilt engine is always a better investment than a replacement.

  8. #8
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    How old would this car be? 5 years? Cam belt replacement is both time & distance; I suspect that this one was way past it's time limit for cam belt replacement.

    Perhaps just another example of low Kms not necessarily being good.

    Barry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barryg
    How old would this car be? 5 years? Cam belt replacement is both time & distance; I suspect that this one was way past it's time limit for cam belt replacement.

    Perhaps just another example of low Kms not necessarily being good.

    Barry.
    Car is listed as a 97 so 9 years
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    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    We had a GTI6 at work with a broken belt at 72,000 km.

    When we contacted Peugeot about it they quickly pointed out that they recommend changes every 80,000 or 4 years what ever comes first. This car was 5 years old. Cost to customer was close to $3,000.

    I love modern technology, once upon a time engines had chains and we never had this problem.

    David.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey
    I rebuilt a XU10J4RS recently. the customer supplied the parts themself at just over AU$1000 (which i think he payed too much for):
    Main & Rod bearings, Rings, VRS kit, Head gasket, 8 valves, cambelt, water pump.

    $200 for head disassembly,machining & reassembly
    and 6-8hrs refitting head = about $500

    if the pistons are holed or have valve heads embedded in them it might cost $600 for pistons
    3-4hrs to get engine out, 1 day to strip it and machine & 1 day to reassemble with all the parts stated above + refitting.
    Any pistons that are not holed, even if they have big indents, are perfectly serviceable.

    If you search out the parts yourself i think you could getaway with AU$1500 for just the head work.
    If it's a full rebuild, AU$2500 to $3000 max.
    Price depends on piston damage, valve damage and lifter damage.

    You can successfully get away with reusing the headbolts, (at least 3 times, maybe more, i haven't snapped one yet), but don't be a cheapass.
    A rebuilt engine is always a better investment than a replacement.

    You should never use these bolts again, they are designed to stretch in oder to get the tension correct (TTY=Torque to Yield).
    They can't possibly give the right tension the second time they are used.

    The bolt snapping is a secondary concern but I snapped a bolt getting it OUT (and this was an engine that had recently had the head refitted), the bolts certainly didn't look new.

    Graham

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    I brought my 1996 S16 in Sept 2004 with 96K, it came with the most of its papers (services), after reading some post in here, I took it to the main Pug dealer and asked them to check if the CAM belt had been done. They couldn't find it in their computer - so I told them to go ahead and do it. They rang me to advise that it hadn't been done - guess I was lucky ....8yrs old almost 100k and it didn't break !!!!!!
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  13. #13
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    buzz: my cambelt was done 28,000 km ago and it started to tear!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CAM Belt gone at 80K - ouch-dsc00159.jpg   CAM Belt gone at 80K - ouch-dsc00160.jpg   CAM Belt gone at 80K - ouch-dsc00161.jpg  

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! buzzlite's Avatar
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    how could you know ? what signs where there or did you find it while having a wee look under the covers ?
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    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    nope, was damm lucky to have been starting the car while standing outside talking to someone and heard a knocking sound...

  16. #16
    jmn
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    "I love modern technology, once upon a time engines had chains and we never had this problem"

    Amen to that David!

    Remember when BMW and Merc. went to belt drive, when was it, about 15 or so years back? Didn't last long, they reverted to chains. Pity Peugeot didn't do the same. One of the canards about chains was "they are noisy". What a load of rubbish; belts are cheaper for the makers.

    Rubber band cam drive is one modern "improvement" we could have well done without.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts kermit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmn
    Pity Peugeot didn't do the same.
    They will be soon. The PSA/BMW engine we will first see in the 207 is chain driven.
    Cheers Simon
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Bring back the good old timing chain

    I have only ever changed timing chains when doing major engine repairs.
    Our Peugeots 505's were all the t/chain models and I didn't find the chains noisy. They are as easy as ever to change too unlike modern cambelts which are hidden behind all manor of things.
    I did belts on all the R20's(and a Fiat) I owned because records were lacking and it made good sense to do them.
    The other main draw back with cambelts is the fact that everyone says you must never re-use a slackened belt. That menas whenever you work on a modern motor and slacken the belt you must replace it which can sometimes mean a belt, a water-pump, tesnioner and whatever else the manufacturer says to change because to not do so will void any warranty claims
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    Bring back the good old timing chain

    I have only ever changed timing chains when doing major engine repairs.
    Our Peugeots 505's were all the t/chain models and I didn't find the chains noisy. They are as easy as ever to change too unlike modern cambelts which are hidden behind all manor of things.
    I did belts on all the R20's(and a Fiat) I owned because records were lacking and it made good sense to do them.
    The other main draw back with cambelts is the fact that everyone says you must never re-use a slackened belt. That menas whenever you work on a modern motor and slacken the belt you must replace it which can sometimes mean a belt, a water-pump, tesnioner and whatever else the manufacturer says to change because to not do so will void any warranty claims
    Chains ARE noisy, I remember standing next to a 505 GTi and a selection of XN powered Peugeots on a dyno, the GTi engine was a lot quieter.
    Having said that, however, from inside the advantage is lost due to the vibration and resonance these big aluminium engines induce!
    Peugeot tried a belt drive in the early days of 404s, then went back to the chain shortly after.
    Graham

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmn
    "I love modern technology, once upon a time engines had chains and we never had this problem"

    Amen to that David!

    Remember when BMW and Merc. went to belt drive, when was it, about 15 or so years back? Didn't last long, they reverted to chains. Pity Peugeot didn't do the same. One of the canards about chains was "they are noisy". What a load of rubbish; belts are cheaper for the makers.

    Rubber band cam drive is one modern "improvement" we could have well done without.
    Mercedes (at least) are reverting to chains in their bigger engines - and it looks from the pix here -

    http://www.motoringfile.com/2004/12/...ange_in_detail

    that the new PSA-BMW engine might use a chain as well (can't see any evidence of a cam belt cover, unless it runs inside the block casting, which would be odd).

    My brother just bought a Holden Vectra 2.2 from an in-law - he thought cheaply - until it snapped the cam belt 4 days later - turns out they have shortened the changes from 100K to 60K because of so many breakages.

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    Fellow Frogger! buzzlite's Avatar
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    I know of a person who's Astra SRi - 32ks on the clock (2 years old) CAM Belt went - they had to replace the whole engine.

    I was concerned with DRTDVL's Cam going after just 28k - I'm sure there would be not come back on Peugeot for a item that is expected to last 80k or 4 years !!!!!!
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  22. #22
    jmn
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    Paul

    Yep, seems like you're right.

    From well down in the article.

    "The timing chain driving the camshafts is not only very precise and reliable, but also remains maintenance-free throughout the full running life of the engine".

    Not before time now bring on the 2 litre!

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  23. #23
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    valvoline.com have an article in their performance section under Tips and tricks that suggests that belts are the way to go.

    It suggests that chains are nothing more than traditional components.

    It also saysthat a belt is better because you get more power through less friction loss, more precise timing, smoother valvetrain motion and you eliminate windage caused by the timing chain and gears running in oil.
    A belt drive also isolates the crankshaft torsional vibrations from the camshaft betterthan a chain, like a second harmonic damper for the rotating assembly.

    And with all that engine builders are doing to stabalize cylender to cylender camshaft timing , doesnt it make sense to do what you can to precisely phase the camshaft to the crankshaft.
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  24. #24
    jmn
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    Yeah, we heard all that "rhubarb" when these belts first came out.

    I just find it interesting that such backwaters of automotive design as BMW, M-B, Lamborghini to name three weren't aware of these "benefits", tried belts but settled on chains.

    Can't say for sure, but maybe PSA/BMW concluded that the marginal benefits were totally shaded by the reliability aspect. Re-read the bit, "maintenance free". For the end user, this argument carries far more weight than the alternative arcane aspects mentioned by Valvoline. Again, it suggests that belt benefits are mainly theoretical. All of the financial benefits went to the maker because the drives were cheaper for them to produce.

    Chains noisy? Really, get iinside a Merc or BMW and repeat that. I take it that's where these cars are driven from.

    Ask the owner who has had to fork out thousands for valves and maybe even pistons when the belt snapped, slipped or whatever, what they think of a timing belt. Some of these incidents have occurred despite proper care and maintenance.

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