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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts rustymunga's Avatar
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    Icon9 bwawawawawawawawawa

    Is it bad to hit the limiter in the 180? What acctually happens in an engine when you redline it and it starts going wawawa. I do it very rarely, but get all when I do it because I think it is really bad.

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    Is it?

  2. #2
    Member dpcgti180's Avatar
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    It is just stopping you from getting to the point of damage.

    No problems but i would sit there too long.
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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Dr_Pug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustymunga
    Is it bad to hit the limiter in the 180? What acctually happens in an engine when you redline it and it starts going wawawa. I do it very rarely, but get all when I do it because I think it is really bad.

    Is it?
    The rev limiter on a car is there to prevent over-reving, which will destroy the engine. Most petrol cars designed for street use have a limiter somewhere around 6000-7000 RPM.

    Some sports cars eg the 180 have it set slightly higher to allow the engine to make more power in the high RPMs. Simply removing the rev limiter, without making any other modifications to a car, will do next to nothing. In some cases, being able to rev the engine higher will yield slightly better performance, often at the cost of more engine wear.

    Should you be hitting the rev limiter, no because you wont be getting any more power out of your 180 (peak power is reached at 7000rpm) and secondly you will cause more engine wear.

    For those thinking of removing the rev limiter.

    You should only worry about raising the rev limiter once you've done substantial work to the engine. That would be to have at least the full exhaust upgraded (including the exhaust manifold and downpipe), a sport camshaft and some way to get more fuel to the engine.

    A stock exhaust restricts everything, so removing the rev limiter if you're still running the stock exhaust does nothing. The stock camshaft is designed to make power in the stock rev range, so there really isn't any reason to raise the rev limiter if you still have the stock camshaft installed.

    If a sport camshaft is fitted you may raise the rev limiter so you can use the power the camshaft makes above 6000 RPM. The engine usually requires more fuel and the mixture richened up abit if your running a sport camshaft, and if running in the high RPMs.
    04' GTi 180

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Pug
    The rev limiter on a car is there to prevent over-reving, which will destroy the engine. Most petrol cars designed for street use have a limiter somewhere around 6000-7000 RPM.

    Some sports cars eg the 180 have it set slightly higher to allow the engine to make more power in the high RPMs. Simply removing the rev limiter, without making any other modifications to a car, will do next to nothing. In some cases, being able to rev the engine higher will yield slightly better performance, often at the cost of more engine wear.

    Should you be hitting the rev limiter, no because you wont be getting any more power out of your 180 (peak power is reached at 7000rpm) and secondly you will cause more engine wear.

    For those thinking of removing the rev limiter.

    You should only worry about raising the rev limiter once you've done substantial work to the engine. That would be to have at least the full exhaust upgraded (including the exhaust manifold and downpipe), a sport camshaft and some way to get more fuel to the engine.

    A stock exhaust restricts everything, so removing the rev limiter if you're still running the stock exhaust does nothing. The stock camshaft is designed to make power in the stock rev range, so there really isn't any reason to raise the rev limiter if you still have the stock camshaft installed.

    If a sport camshaft is fitted you may raise the rev limiter so you can use the power the camshaft makes above 6000 RPM. The engine usually requires more fuel and the mixture richened up abit if your running a sport camshaft, and if running in the high RPMs.

    Depending on the gear ratios you may want to shift well into the red zone to get near the high torque revs after you shift. First to second gear shift is a typical example. So even without any modifications, removing the rev limiter may lead to faster times. As for engine wear, I have been running my 106 Rally for 120,000 km changing gears at 8000 rpm's without any problems and the car is at 168 hp, nearly 40% higher than the original output.

    Thanos

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Dr_Pug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Depending on the gear ratios you may want to shift well into the red zone to get near the high torque revs after you shift. First to second gear shift is a typical example. So even without any modifications, removing the rev limiter may lead to faster times. As for engine wear, I have been running my 106 Rally for 120,000 km changing gears at 8000 rpm's without any problems and the car is at 168 hp, nearly 40% higher than the original output.

    Thanos
    That is true, the 180 has a tall first gear but bear in mind the ecu, cam, headers and exhaust isnt exactly stock on the 180 or 182. Removing the the rev limiter without any further modifications wont give the 180/182 much or any improvement.

    If you take a look at the torque graphs in the 3rd gear shoot out





    On the 180 peak power is reached at about 5200nm of torque @ wheels holds it there via a plateau from 120 to 135km/hr with no further power gain before hitting the rev limiter.

    The Clio 182 is similar peak power is reached at about 5100nm of torque @ wheels held there from 120 - 130km/h then begins to loose power before the rev limiter is hit.



    The RCS 172 on the other hand has a restriction problem from the cat back, you can see here that by changing the cat back not only has given brought the 172 into the 182 status, but the rev limiter has hindered it from achieving its true peak power.
    Last edited by WRC180; 10th February 2006 at 11:22 AM.
    04' GTi 180

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! J206GTI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustymunga
    Is it bad to hit the limiter in the 180? What acctually happens in an engine when you redline it and it starts going wawawa. I do it very rarely, but get all when I do it because I think it is really bad.

    Is it?
    I'd avoid doing that as much as you could. your engine mount is the first one to get replaced in no time.
    Jason

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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts kermit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustymunga
    Is it bad to hit the limiter in the 180? What acctually happens in an engine when you redline it and it starts going wawawa. I do it very rarely, but get all when I do it because I think it is really bad.

    Is it?
    Not at all. The limiter is designed to protect your engine. Just don't drive everywhere with the engine bouncing off it - but you wouldn't do that anyway.





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    Fellow Frogger! SydGTi6's Avatar
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    It sounds like your major query is 'will hitting the limiter harm my engine'?

    I'd say the usual common sense rules for high revving apply here. High RPM work should only be done once the car is properly warmed up (ie:the oil temperature has reached its optimal range (indicated 70-90°)).

    It sounds like you are only clipping the limiter once in a while by accident - no real dilemma, but really, you should shift up at the point where peak power in your car is reached.

    The more you stress an engine, the more it will wear, so avoid stress where its not productive.

    IE: Race cars use high RPM all day long, but drivers use optimal shift points and only have to take off hard in 1st gear at the Start line, and exiting the Pits.
    Revving hard in first gear (at take-off) is what places excess physical forces on your engine-mounts, so avoid reaching/ revving into the limiter on take-off. Taking off hard at every set of lights is going to take its toll, and accomplishes very little (except wear and tear). Save high revs for the open road or the track.

    'Will hitting the limiter harm my engine'?
    If as you say, you occasionally bump into the limiter in the course of normal performance driving, no.

    If you rev her hard without warming her up, yes. If you hit the limiter all day every day, off every set of lights, yes.
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  9. #9
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Pug
    On the 180 peak power is reached at about 5200nm of torque

    Man that is a lot of torque.
    Regards,

    Simon

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  10. #10
    Tadpole
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    [QUOTE=Dr_Pug]
    You should only worry about raising the rev limiter once you've done substantial work to the engine. That would be to have at least the full exhaust upgraded (including the exhaust manifold and downpipe), a sport camshaft and some way to get more fuel to the engine.[QUOTE]

    Dr Pug, have you ever seen a gti 180 exhaust manifold? it may be stock but its not what i would call stock!!

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    That 3000 Nm of torque is a multiple of the gear and diff ratio by the actual engine torque, and even then I think it is a made up figure only good when comparing identical cars run in the same gear.
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  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! Dr_Pug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugtech
    You should only worry about raising the rev limiter once you've done substantial work to the engine. That would be to have at least the full exhaust upgraded (including the exhaust manifold and downpipe), a sport camshaft and some way to get more fuel to the engine.

    Dr Pug, have you ever seen a gti 180 exhaust manifold? it may be stock but its not what i would call stock!!
    As per my second post

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_PUG
    That is true, the 180 has a tall first gear but bear in mind the ecu, cam, headers and exhaust isnt exactly stock on the 180 or 182.
    I think people have come to realise that trying to get more power out of 180/182 isnt very easy because of this. This isnt to say its not possible. The addition of filter mods and ecu's alone wont do much apart from straighten the lines out on your air fuel ratio.

    There is more power to be made out of the GTI motor, it involves high lift cams, exhaust system with lower back pressure with less baffle, remapped ECU, different compresion ratio, more fuel with a richened up mixture, then more power may be seen with the rev limiter raised.

    Oh and there is also quad throttle bods..............
    Last edited by WRC180; 11th February 2006 at 12:42 AM.
    04' GTi 180

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Dr_Pug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore
    That 3000 Nm of torque is a multiple of the gear and diff ratio by the actual engine torque, and even then I think it is a made up figure only good when comparing identical cars run in the same gear.
    If you look in the social events section there are about 5 dyno figures of clios with almost identical torque curves.

    PS... Sorry rusty dont mean to hijack this thread
    04' GTi 180

  14. #14
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore
    That 3000 Nm of torque...
    wtf

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts mr bern's Avatar
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    Come on rusty, drop the other shoe and tell us you're talking about hitting it in 5th ...
    .
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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts rustymunga's Avatar
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    Default Thanks for feedback

    Just read all the posts. Na no worries for Hijacking the thread Dr, Pug. Learnt quite a bit here. So thanks.

    I didn't realise taking off at the lights is bad for the car. I thought it was just as bad as cruzing along and taking off. Didn’t realise it was the worst kind of "thrashing" If you were to look at all the times I do give my car stick, I would think the most would be off the lights etc. I don't really fang it much now as I have this weird thing going on in my head that I feel guilty every time I thrash it, engine wear etc, and the speeding fine issue.

    Dr Pug. I would like to know, If I was to do an upgrade on a full exhaust system to get that little bit more power, got the Peugeot Service to install it, would it void the warranty? How much would a very good upgrade cost. Very curious.

    Thanks all

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts kermit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustymunga
    If I was to do an upgrade on a full exhaust system to get that little bit more power, got the Peugeot Service to install it, would it void the warranty? How much would a very good upgrade cost. Very curious.
    You've asked this before Rusty, even before you got your car. Why don't you search for your old thread?
    Cheers Simon
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  18. #18
    Tadpole Jmancool's Avatar
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    It's fine to hit the rev-limiter...... as long as you are in someone elses car....

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! casnell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmancool
    It's fine to hit the rev-limiter...... as long as you are in someone elses car....
    Compulsory I'd say in a rental car....
    205gti

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts mr bern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustymunga
    If I was to do an upgrade on a full exhaust system to get that little bit more power, got the Peugeot Service to install it, would it void the warranty? How much would a very good upgrade cost.
    Since the Devil system was what they put on the Rallye [138] variant a few years back, I can't see how it could void your warranty. Then again, it's your warranty, not mine ... and a 180, not a 138.

    Maybe you should ask Peugeot -- in writing -- when you know exactly what you want to do. FYI, fitting a full Devil exhaust is going to cost you a sum well north of $1000 ... but whatever the price is, it'll look very attractive compared to the Pug equivalent, which (last time I looked) is only stocked from the manifold back as a single-piece kit, and for a 138, went for about $2800 ... and is probably no more adequate than the OE exhaust that it replaces -- haven't heard of exhausts going bad on 180s (yet), but they surely do on 138s once they get close to 100,000 km, or three or four years on the road.
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts rustymunga's Avatar
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    Devil Exhaust ay?

    Sounds expensive, could be a good Christmas present. Unless it changes my car into a buzz box, which is something I DON'T want.

    Thanks for the advice Mr Bern, very informative.


  22. #22
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Rusty,

    If you do ever get a different exhaust can i have first dibs on the standard one your taking off. I reckon those twin pipes would look great on the 205.

    Ca,
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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts rustymunga's Avatar
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    Hey Cam, would probably keep stocky for resale. Maybe sell it to get more money to buy aftermarket exhaust.

    Cam, the only thing restricting me is my lack of knowledge.
    1. I definitely would not purchase any performance enhancing exhaust if it converted my car into a buzz box.
    2. I don't know if there are performance enhancing exhausts out there that can give me
    a) Nice sound
    b) More Power

    SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!!!

    Oh yeh, just remembered. If I was to get aftermarket exhaust I would most likely keep the tips, unless new one was similar to them. I like the thickness of these ones. Would most probably keep the tips dude soz.

    Peugeot parts will order you a system or even tips in. ...

    at a price

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! J206GTI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustymunga
    Hey Cam, would probably keep stocky for resale. Maybe sell it to get more money to buy aftermarket exhaust.

    Cam, the only thing restricting me is my lack of knowledge.
    1. I definitely would not purchase any performance enhancing exhaust if it converted my car into a buzz box.
    2. I don't know if there are performance enhancing exhausts out there that can give me
    a) Nice sound
    b) More Power

    SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!!!

    Oh yeh, just remembered. If I was to get aftermarket exhaust I would most likely keep the tips, unless new one was similar to them. I like the thickness of these ones. Would most probably keep the tips dude soz.

    Peugeot parts will order you a system or even tips in. ...

    at a price
    You need to come down to Melbourne to get the Devil combination from Autoparis.

    Before you do any mods, isn't it more sensible if you upgrade your brakes first ?? Afterall that's the only thing keeping you from going off, and the more power you have, the harder on the brakes you have.

    I'd also like to ask why you need more performance ?? Do you really need it ?? Have you maxed out the capability of the car yet ?? And with all these performance mod, where are you gonna use it ?? Sure it feels quicker on the road, but with traffic lights and other road infrastructures, chances are you are not going from A to B any faster at all. Better go to attend a few driving courses to learn the car formally on the track before any mods.


    Jason
    Jason

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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts rustymunga's Avatar
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    Dear Jason,

    I am happy to recieve your But you should think a little before you post. (not having a go, just informing you)

    When people buy performance mods and equip their car with them, they are not trying to get from a to b faster, or really drive on the road faster. Most like to add aftermarket performance boosters to get that extra kick when they do put their foot down. What you are effectively saying Jason is that people such as myself (who has not done it yet but will) who put performance mods on their car, just want to fang it around faster than they already do. I don't really fang it around at all, but when I do, which I do occasionally, yet now that my license is restricted not for very long and quite rarely, we are happy that there is a nice exhaust system working down under the car to give it a bit more kick. Anyway, I'm sure this exhaust system you mention would make a very small difference anyway. Part of the reason I would go for it is if it gave me a more grunty sound, I would never get it if it made my car buzzzzzzzzz.

    Now, jase, what do they sound like? How much are they

    P.S. Thanks for the suggestion on the exhaust, just like to know how much and what sound frankly.

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