407: opinions sought
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 407: opinions sought

    Dear Pugmeisters,

    I am a non Pug driver and am considering a 407 for my next car, among many other options. I currently have a salary sacrifice fleet lease on a Ford Territory TX AWD. We have one young child (13 months) and may need to accommodate another in a year or two. The Territory is great to drive and we love the 4WD, but we find it a bit big around the city, and it's very thirsty.

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    I've always dreamed about having a 405 or 406. The wife dropped into the local Pug dealer the other day and was quite taken by the 407. While I desire the car, I would like opinions on some aspects of the car. Our priorities for a new car would be:

    1. safety
    2. reliability
    3. internal space
    4. economy

    Price is also a constraint. The car seems to come up well for safety, with airbags all over the place, all the right brake technologies etc. What about reliability? I notice pugs don't always score well in user surveys there. My neighbour had a Renault and it was an absolute shocker with electrical problems. Is this likely to be an issue in the 407? Also, what would lead me to buy this car over, say, a Subaru Liberty at the same price?

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! James504's Avatar
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    Personaly speaking as a pug fanatic. I would take the liberty everytime over the 407, aslong as it was the GT 2.0L t or the g3 B4. The general consensus is that the 407 has not followed in the pedigree of the 405, 406. There have been a few post's lately about the safety of the 407. All this said, the 407 is still a very nice car. Hopefully some 407 drivers can be of more assistance.

    + the new liberty has it all over the 407 in the looks department.
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts kermit's Avatar
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    IMO the 407 won't cut the mustard when it comes to 2 and 3. Especially 3 when you are coming from a Territory. Yes the 407 will use less fuel though a V6 407 is only a couple of hundred kgs less than the base Territory so its fuel economy won't be that great. Better but not great. However the 2.2L HDi is very economical.

    Another option maybe pestering your Ford dealer to see when the diesel Territory will be available. The PSA/Ford 2.7L V6 diesel is the engine being talked about.

    As for buying the 407 over a Subbie, well you'd probably only do that if you absolutely loved the 407 AND absolutely hated the Subbie. As a business decision the Subbie wins hands down - the wagon is a proper wagon, the 407 wagon isn't. IMO the Japanese screw cars together way better than the French. If those two are your final choices go for the Liberty.

    To throw another make into the mix consider the Honda Accord, though no wagon option. However the Odyssey has all the space you will likely ever need.

    Oh and another thing to consider is the dealer support. Pug dealers aren't exactly on every corner (like Holden, Ford, or Toyota), and their level of customer service can be some what poor. I guess like every business there ae good dealers and there are bad dealers so make sure you pic a good one because when you Pug goes wrong you want the dealer on your side.
    Cheers Simon
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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Trixie's Avatar
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    The basic 407 Touring is, what, $48K plus metallic - the executive ends up the same price as a Liberty 3.0R or 3.0R-B automatic wagon. The 2.2 litre petrol auto is astonishingly slow and frustrating to drive and isn't really all that economical in town. The Liberty is a better riding, better handling, better built, faster, smoother, quieter, more spacious, probably more reliable car with better resale. The Liberty comes standard with a fairly large sunroof and a magnificent stereo. The diesel make more sense financially but its more expensive again. The 407 is indeed a nice car, but it has some very stiff competition I'm afraid.
    John

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  5. #5
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    I've had a 407 hdi auto touring wagon since September and I'm very happy with it. Did my first big trip in it recently and travelled about 1000km fully loaded with 5 on board and the economy was outstanding. Plenty of grunt for overtaking and hills and it cruises beautifully. I think it stacks up well in terms of safety (airbags everywhere, stability control, abs etc), economy (in the diesel version anyway) room (had no complaints from 4 passengers during a long trip and the rear storage is suprisingly large. I love the styling and i like the fact that there aren't many on the road. I considered a Liberty (briefly) but the heart won over the head and I'm happy it did. Highly recommend the diesel/auto combination.

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Pate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James504
    ...the new liberty has it all over the 407 in the looks department.
    Subaru Liberty looks like it has been designed in the old peoples nursing house.
    I am strongly supporting the general opinion that good looks are the biggest sales argument of 407.

    Here in Finland they have sold quite a few 407 and they seem to be 'ultra-reliable' as almost nothing has gone wrong with them. Few 407s have had the door handle replaced since the frozen handle has cracked but I guess you don't have -41 Celsius there...

    Certainly Peugeot 407 and 607 are the most reliable Pugs in 20 years or so.

  7. #7
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pate
    Subaru Liberty looks like it has been designed in the old peoples nursing house.
    I am strongly supporting the general opinion that good looks are the biggest sales argument of 407.

    Here in Finland they have sold quite a few 407 and they seem to be 'ultra-reliable' as almost nothing has gone wrong with them. Few 407s have had the door handle replaced since the frozen handle has cracked but I guess you don't have -41 Celsius there...

    Certainly Peugeot 407 and 607 are the most reliable Pugs in 20 years or so.
    We had 41 degrees just two days ago.

    Ohh, you mean MINUS 41 degrees

    Why did you have to compare the 407 with the Subaru? Surely you could have given us the option of a Lada Niva, or a Kia Mentor, or even a Proton Persona???

    The 407 would be something you buy with your heart, the Subie with your head.

    I just hope the 407 series don't inherit the niggling problems experienced by the mighty 406 series.

    As much as I love the polarising looks of the 407, with 2 + 2 you'd have to opt for the Subaru.

    Dave
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  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! Pate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404
    Why did you have to compare the 407 with the Subaru? Surely you could have given us the option of a Lada Niva, or a Kia Mentor, or even a Proton Persona???
    None of those mentioned above are sold in Finland. Subaru is but they have market share of less than 1 % so we don't see them often. Subaru Liberty is called Legacy in Finland...

    In Finland you can buy 407 with both heart and head.

  9. #9
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pate
    None of those mentioned above are sold in Finland. Subaru is but they have market share of less than 1 % so we don't see them often. Subaru Liberty is called Legacy in Finland...

    In Finland you can buy 407 with both heart and head.
    Err...ok!
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  10. #10
    Member 407owner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James504
    Personaly speaking as a pug fanatic. I would take the liberty everytime over the 407...
    Mudhoney, you will find this forum very anti-407 (or any 07 for that matter), since most of them don't own one, have never driven one, or would never contemplate owning one until they are like, 20 years old or something.

    We have an older Liberty, circa '92 that we are selling right now. About 3 months ago we bought a 407 HDi. Not our first Pug. We had a 306 XSi before that one.

    Sure there are some shortcomings with the 407. But looking at your criteria I can say:

    1. safety

    NCAP Euro 5 rating - 8 airbags. Safe as houses! It's a very secure feeling inside the car, driver or passenger.l

    2. reliability

    Tricky question. Model is a tad young to answer properly. We've done 5000 km without a problem.

    3. internal space

    Not huge, but comparable to a Subaru Liberty. We still have our Liberty. The kids grew up with it. Medium sized car, very practical. Boot size on the 407 sedan is more than adequate for our needs as a 4 person family with 2 teenaged daughters.

    4. economy

    Economy shines in the 407 HDi. The engine keeps getting better and better as we run it in. Last fortnight we averaged 7.1 L/100KM (39.8 MPG) AROUND TOWN. This is real world mileage not test track nonsense. On the highway we have achieved 5.1 L/100KM (55.4 MPG) - that's fully loaded with 4 people, aircon on full at 110KM/HR. I'm looking forward to taking her on a long trip.

    I thought seriously about buying another Liberty. But really, they haven't changed THAT MUCH in the last 14 years. Fuel economy is about the same (10 L/100KM), safety is better, but styling and interior space are about the same.

    The only downside of the 407 is handling on poor quality secondary roads is quite poor. The rear end feels very insecure. But on the highway, this car is outstanding. And very comfortable around town.

    Hope this has helped you.

    We love our 407 HDi! She takes a while to learn to drive properly. But that's part of the fun of owning a Peugeot I reckon. All cars have their quirks. Peugeots have 'em in spades!
    Last edited by 407owner; 9th February 2006 at 09:39 PM.

  11. #11
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    [QUOTE=407owner]Mudhoney, you will find this forum very anti-407 (or any 07 for that matter), since most of them don't own one, have never driven one, or would never contemplate owning one until they are like, 20 years old or something.

    QUOTE]

    Geez...I never noticed

    My family of 5 (ages 11,8, 2.5) love our 407 sedan (despite it being a 4sp 2.2 auto). Don't take my word for it though. Drive it and any other cars on your shortlist and decide which one is BEST FOR YOU.

    If you do however want other member's opinions who have actually driven them, you'll find a couple by doing a search including a good post on a member's drive to QLD in his parents HDi wagon.

    Cheers,
    Mark

  12. #12
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Whilst there may be a case for the argument of an 'anti-407' lobby, I'm not sure if we can all be tarred from that same brush.

    Although the face of the 407 has polarised opinion (I love it), the car had almighty shoes to fill. The car it superceded, the 406, was known to be a smooth quiet cruiser with excellent handling. Just like the 405 that car superceded. Of course, the Ferrari-esque 406 coupe was a breathtaking design; again very hard to beat.

    The 407 is a lovely car but for some reason the rear suspension wasn't developed to the same degree as the new fronts. Peugeots MUST HANDLE so there is some disquiet on this site when a new flagship model is released that plainly doesn't.

    I don't think our Finnish friend picked up my humour, but comparing a 407 against a Subaru Legacy (Liberty) is a bloody big ask. You could substitute a BMW for the 407 and it still would be a big ask. The Subies are that good.

    I certainly hope the 407's turn out to be magnificent cars and don't have the irritating problems of the 406. I still bet 407 V6's will eat radiators though.

    Buy a 407 if you want one, it will be a lovely car.

    Dave
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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! James504's Avatar
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    'We' are anti-07 because they are a let down compared to the cars they replaced. Apart from 07 drivers who would want a 307 over a 306 or a 407 over a 406? I have driven a T5 xse, and would never think of buying one! Give me my 15 year old Mi16 thankyou very much! People like me don't buy a pug because of the number of airbags it has or the economy or the boot space, we buy it because of the handling. 07 series- 2 steps foward, 3 backwards.
    Last edited by James504; 10th February 2006 at 12:08 AM.
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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Pate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404
    ...I don't think our Finnish friend picked up my humour,



    Sorry about that our brains are frozen here....

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts kermit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert But-Husaim
    travelled about 1000km fully loaded with 5 on board and the economy was outstanding. Plenty of grunt for overtaking and hills and it cruises beautifully.
    If it wasn't economical or had heaps of torque, you'd want your money back. These are a diesels prime strenghts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert But-Husaim
    room (had no complaints from 4 passengers during a long trip and the rear storage is suprisingly large.
    My Coupe has more rear headroom than a 407 and the 430L of space in the 407SW can hardly be called large when a Liberty wagon has 559L. Yes some would consider the 407 stylish, I don't, but then I don't particlularly think the Liberty is anything to write home about in the looks department.
    Cheers Simon
    >8-]

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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts kermit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 407owner
    The only downside of the 407 is handling on poor quality secondary roads is quite poor.
    Which 90% of OZ roads are.
    Cheers Simon
    >8-]

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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts kermit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 407er
    If you do however want other member's opinions who have actually driven them
    My opinions about the 407 do come from having driven them. IMO the 406 is a better car. The 407 isn't a bad car but you can do better for the money. The best buy 407 is a manual HDi.
    Cheers Simon
    >8-]

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  18. #18
    Tadpole NoKanDo's Avatar
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    Consider the 307 Touring?

    It has more space inside, believe it or not. And with its tall body, actually feels less claustrophobic, especially in the back seat.
    And cheaper too...
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  19. #19
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    [QUOTE=407owner]Mudhoney, you will find this forum very anti-407 (or any 07 for that matter), since most of them don't own one, have never driven one, or would never contemplate owning one until they are like, 20 years old or something.

    Bloody Hell - a big call to say that we all tared with the same brush

    What makes you think that you represent the views of the majority of the forum members or know what forum members individual buying decisions are?

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! Trixie's Avatar
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    I had a decent go in a 407 prior to purchasing our Liberty. And I am a long-time French car nut. And before I drove it, I thought it might well be near the top of the list. And I just bought a current generation PSA product...

    This buying with the heart stuff; Subaru gives plenty of character in the driving department; adjustable, chuckable, grippy AWD chassis, the gorgeous flat 6 engine, smooth and responsive automatic etc. Looks are subjective and the Subaru is certainly conservative, but as a wagon it is a well-proportioned, well-balanced design. Form follows function. Whats the 407's excuse?
    John

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  21. #21
    Tadpole
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    Thanks, guys/girls. I had sort of expected a bit of positive arm-twisting by some one-eyed Pug supporters, but it seems I'm getting a more balanced view. I've got to say I'm not overwhelmed with positive feelings about the 407 based on most of the feedback, although the turbo diesel does sound a bit interesting. I'll continue researching and let you know what i decide in the end (still some months off). Feel free to keep posting more comments, and thanks for advice to date.

  22. #22
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    There's some very tempting deals going on C5 Citroens at present and whilst there were a few negatives around in their early days, buyers in the past couple of years seem to absolutley rave over them and few if any dissatisfied owners seem to be around.
    Comfort in the extreme and from memory, around 200,000 klms warranty on the suspension should all ad up to a bit of peace of mind.
    At least take one for a test drive and see how "the other half" lives.
    I drive a Xantia which is the predecessor of the C5 and IMHO possibly one of the solidest and most reliable cars of the past 20 years. (That's coming from someone who used to manage a Toyota franchise and worked at a Ford one)


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  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'm with Alan,

    don't write off the C5 HDi wagon. I'm unsure of it's exact price, however quite a few people on this board own them, and think there amazing cars. They are probably nearly as big inside as your ford, however the 2.2litre diesel in them kicks out 340 Nm of torque (off the top of my head) while returning starggering fuel economy. If your not please with the ride and handling quality of it, I'd be stunned ....

    Oh yeah, Citroen suspension ... so no matter how much weight you put in the back (and on the towbar), it'll so level automatically with no impact on it's exceptional handling and ride.

    The deisels appear to be still highly saught after and (very unfortunatly for me) are holding the resale values quite well. Personally I wouldn't touch the petrol powered ones ... Why would you when the diesel is so bloody good ?? The deisel has as much torque as the biggest V6 you can get in them. The majority of the C5's and poogoes sold in Europe are diesels... Infact it quite unusual over there for anyone to buy the petrol models (quite the opposite to Australia).

    I doubt you'll even find the Poogoe guys here that are bagging the 407 will have a bad word for the C5.

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  24. #24
    Tadpole
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    Having now owned a 407 Hdi Manual for three months I have nothing but praise for this car.
    I can honestly say that to date we do not have one question about quality or reliability of this car. Peugeot have produced a very solid, well finished car. Each trip to and from our home involves 5km of dirt road that only sees a council grader a couple of times a year, which the 407 handles well and is really dust proof with no rattles or squeaks. Comfort, handling and air conditioning are excellent.
    Computer readout on fuel consumption since leaving the showroom is 6.1t/100k (3879 kms) and the last 553 kms have averaged 5.7 lt/100 kms. this involves mostly country roads. Have yet to test computer against actual full tank and top up, but fuel purchase seem to match pretty well with the readout.
    Having owned a 504 (18 years and 400,000ks) and a 405 SRDT (10 years and 280,000) the 407 has a big reputation to maitain but we love this car.
    Before purchase we also test drove a 307 1.6 Hdi Touring and really liked the Citroen C5, but with the nearest Citroen dealer 450ks away nerves got the better of me!
    My advice would be take the 407 for a long test drive over a variety of road surfaces to give it a good workout. One word of warning --- you do have to watch you don't scrape the front end in deep culverts or driveways.
    Last edited by Frogmouth 407; 13th February 2006 at 06:01 AM.

  25. #25
    Tadpole
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    Re: Diesel. Does it make for a noiser engine? Higher maintenance costs due to the additional turbo? Is it smelly and messy? Are diesel pumps hard to come by in the city or country? Do you have to use alpine diesel when going to the snow?

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