203/403 rebuild
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Thread: 203/403 rebuild

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    Default 203/403 rebuild

    Hi Guys

    I’m in the process of putting together one great engine from two ok ones for my 203. Now there are a number of aspects to consider here but one of them is whether I should use the block with 75mm sleeves or whether I should go for the other with 80mm sleeves. In deciding this one of the open questions is the pistons. Ive got a set of reasonable 403 pistons (right) and Ive got these good but odd looking 203 pistons (left). Perhaps I should hasten to add that I’ve never seen other 203 pistons then these, so perhaps its just ignorance but to me these 203 pistons look like they are something special. The sleeves in both blocks are in nearly perfect condition, perhaps with the 75mm one being slightly closer to perfect then the 80mm and same being the case for the pistons respectively. So now the big question is which to choose. The 80mm would give me more power surely, but then what about those 203 pistons that look so special. Are the special and in a positive case would they out-weight the the slight difference in power the 403 pistons would give me combined with the fact that the 75mm sleeves are in slightly better nic?? I would appreciate any assistance on this as I am a bit stuck on this.

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    Cheers...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 203/403 rebuild-203pist.jpg  
    Peugeot freak from East Africa..

    1959> 203 saloon x2
    1969> 404L Break
    1986> 505GL Estate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lennix
    Hi Guys

    I’m in the process of putting together one great engine from two ok ones for my 203. Now there are a number of aspects to consider here but one of them is whether I should use the block with 75mm sleeves or whether I should go for the other with 80mm sleeves. In deciding this one of the open questions is the pistons. Ive got a set of reasonable 403 pistons (right) and Ive got these good but odd looking 203 pistons (left). Perhaps I should hasten to add that I’ve never seen other 203 pistons then these, so perhaps its just ignorance but to me these 203 pistons look like they are something special. The sleeves in both blocks are in nearly perfect condition, perhaps with the 75mm one being slightly closer to perfect then the 80mm and same being the case for the pistons respectively. So now the big question is which to choose. The 80mm would give me more power surely, but then what about those 203 pistons that look so special. Are the special and in a positive case would they out-weight the the slight difference in power the 403 pistons would give me combined with the fact that the 75mm sleeves are in slightly better nic?? I would appreciate any assistance on this as I am a bit stuck on this.

    Cheers...

    The 203 pistons are normal.
    The domed top is just to maintain the 7 to 1 compression with less displacement and the same combustion chamber volume.
    Use the 80mm pistons.
    You may have trouble finding liner seals for the 75mm sleeves, the 80mm ones are fairly readily available, they are the same as for pre 1970 404.
    Graham

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    It depends entirely on what you want to do. If you want an authentic restoration, use the 203 liners, if you want a better performance to keep up with traffic, go with the 403 set. Some people use the 403 liners and 203 head so that the motor looks authentic. However you lose the efficiency of the cross flow head. Peugeot actually used the 403 head on the 203 block for the 403 Sept and got quite respectable power figures from it. For my own, I'm a restorer not a modifier so I try to stay with everything original on my 203 even down to the small wheel cylinders in the brakes. Are there many old Peugeots surviving in East Africa? There is a splendid photo of 203's lined up in the street outside Marshalls Motors in Nairobi taken in the early '50's.

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    Thanks alot for the feedback, Im now redoing the conrod bushes so will soon need to take a decision on this. I do prefer originality and could live with the slower pace of the 75mm, but then the problem is that I have a couple of good 403 heads, while the 203 head I have is a bit over the hill in terms of valve seats even the valves themselves, which I gather arent the same as the 403?? On the other hand the block and with the 75mm liners is in better shape then the one with the 80mm. Likewise the 75mm pistons are in better shape then the 80mm one, so perhaps the best solution would be a hybrid using the 75mm block\liner\pistons and the 403 head, since both blocks already have the liners in them and as such the seals shouldnt pose an immediate challenge. Where is the picture of the 203 in Nairobi? You still see a few 403's on the roads here, mostly pickups but 203 are as good as gone. So parts are posing a challenge its only because I happened to have lots of parts lying around from yesteryear that I can put this one together..
    Peugeot freak from East Africa..

    1959> 203 saloon x2
    1969> 404L Break
    1986> 505GL Estate

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    There was a change in the 203 valves in very late models (1957 from memory) but I don't know if they were interchangeable with the 403. Our Melbourne Peugeot club has a good collection of French books on the 203 and in one of them is the picture of the 203's in Nairobi. (Perhaps Graham Wallis could get someone to do a scan for us?) I've always had a soft spot for Tanzania after Julius Nyere (how do you spell that?) replaced the ministerial fleet of Mercedes with 404's. Over the years there has been a steady flow of immigrants from East Africa to Australia and they have sometimes brought their interesting Peugeots with them.

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    I was told about the difference in valves by the owner of a well know garage specialising in Pugs here in town after I had come to him looking for three replacement valves for the 203 head. Instead he gave me a 403 head from his pile and said I was better off using that, because the valves for the 203 were different and imposible to get. The way he put it was that, they used to simply throw away the 203 heads after the 403 heads became abundant, based on the crossflow properties it offered + the "unfortunate position of the carb on the mainfold".

    The head he gave me lacks rocker shafts and cover but is otherwise good as new and includs valves and a water pump! So althought I was initially going for the 203 head, I think I have made up my mind to settle for the 403 head. The quesiton that still remains now is the which block (75mm or 80mm) to use? In favour of the 80mm is that it is the block that the vehicle is registered with, so swopping to the 75mm block would require amendments with the registration office, which Id rather avoid since they might take that opportunity to call the car in for inspection .

    The prospect of more power is also temping but so is was the idea of keeping it as original. But in the likely event that I decide to use the 403 head then visual originality is already a lie. To complicate matters, the liners and pistons + rings for the 75mm are in better condition then the 80mm but then I have the registration issue. Of course I could choose to move the 75mm to the other block but then Ill be stuck with the problem that Graham mentiones- where do I get the seals from?

    On the positive side, I still have time to decide! Cause Im still waiting for a set of size 50 main- and conebearings. I expect to get these from Nairobi (which is the only place you can hope to find such parts now) within a week or so. The conerods have been taken to the mentioned workshop owner, who is known to sit in the evening in front of his television-set finehoning such parts to perfection for a selected few (by introducing the 203 project to him I went straight unto that list). So advise is still wellcome.

    Its Nyerere... a few years back a very faded but very orginal 404 saloon emerged on the road here in town, still bearing similarly faded painted writings on the front door stating "East African Community" complete with old 3-digit telephonenumbers. It is likely that this particular vehicle use to be part of the batch you are mentioning, which was later passed on the community.

    The community itself was dissolved in 77' under much controversy and much of its property (appartently including the 404) was simply put away and left there until in the late 90s when preperation for the second incarnation of the community was put on steam.. It was about this time that the 404 briefly emerg ed on the streets but I havent seen it again and wonder where its gone. It was in far too good condition to be simply thrown away (at least from a visual inspection) so who knows may its in Oz...?
    Peugeot freak from East Africa..

    1959> 203 saloon x2
    1969> 404L Break
    1986> 505GL Estate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lennix
    I was told about the difference in valves by the owner of a well know garage specialising in Pugs here in town after I had come to him looking for three replacement valves for the 203 head. Instead he gave me a 403 head from his pile and said I was better off using that, because the valves for the 203 were different and imposible to get. The way he put it was that, they used to simply throw away the 203 heads after the 403 heads became abundant, based on the crossflow properties it offered + the "unfortunate position of the carb on the mainfold".

    The head he gave me lacks rocker shafts and cover but is otherwise good as new and includs valves and a water pump! So althought I was initially going for the 203 head, I think I have made up my mind to settle for the 403 head. The quesiton that still remains now is the which block (75mm or 80mm) to use? In favour of the 80mm is that it is the block that the vehicle is registered with, so swopping to the 75mm block would require amendments with the registration office, which Id rather avoid since they might take that opportunity to call the car in for inspection .

    The prospect of more power is also temping but so is was the idea of keeping it as original. But in the likely event that I decide to use the 403 head then visual originality is already a lie. To complicate matters, the liners and pistons + rings for the 75mm are in better condition then the 80mm but then I have the registration issue. Of course I could choose to move the 75mm to the other block but then Ill be stuck with the problem that Graham mentiones- where do I get the seals from?

    On the positive side, I still have time to decide! Cause Im still waiting for a set of size 50 main- and conebearings. I expect to get these from Nairobi (which is the only place you can hope to find such parts now) within a week or so. The conerods have been taken to the mentioned workshop owner, who is known to sit in the evening in front of his television-set finehoning such parts to perfection for a selected few (by introducing the 203 project to him I went straight unto that list). So advise is still wellcome.

    Its Nyerere... a few years back a very faded but very orginal 404 saloon emerged on the road here in town, still bearing similarly faded painted writings on the front door stating "East African Community" complete with old 3-digit telephonenumbers. It is likely that this particular vehicle use to be part of the batch you are mentioning, which was later passed on the community.

    The community itself was dissolved in 77' under much controversy and much of its property (appartently including the 404) was simply put away and left there until in the late 90s when preperation for the second incarnation of the community was put on steam.. It was about this time that the 404 briefly emerg ed on the streets but I havent seen it again and wonder where its gone. It was in far too good condition to be simply thrown away (at least from a visual inspection) so who knows may its in Oz...?
    You can't put the 75mm liners in the 80mm block.
    You would fit new rings anyway?
    With a little machining, however, you can fit 84mm liners from a 404 into the 75mm block, early 404 pistons will fit the con rods and then you're away!
    It may be worth fitting hardened seats to the exhaust ports unless you are sure leaded fuel will continue to be available.
    Graham

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    Ok, I went around thinking the blocks were similar!? I suppose the difference is in the the bores in the bottom of the block where the sleeves sit and that it is here that some expanding needs to be done?

    By fitting 84mm sleeves I see two advantages beyond power, 1) access to sleeves + pistons/rings and 2) power. Interesting thought. So how is it with the crankshaft of of the early 404, cause judging from the diameter of the pins of an XM that Ive got sitting at home there is a difference.

    The pins from the 203/403 are narrower (Im assuming the the XC 5mains and XM share similar pins + XC 3mains). So if I want to fit early XC pistons what about the pins? And what about the cylinderhead, will the 403 head accommodate the bigger pistons?

    Finally, as parts are quite scarce for these cars now, Im reluctant to settle for a setup that is going to reduce the lifespan of the engine. My intention was in fact putting something together that would be durable for the next many years with frequent use (a couple of days a week). How would the setup with 84mm pistons effect this?

    Naturally the harder you drive the more wear is effected but that is something one can controle to an extent, my worry is more in terms of things breaking due to exceeding its limitations. I gather the 404 3mains had a tendancy to break crankshafts and considering that the XB block has no skirts, Im assuming it is considerably less rigid too?
    Peugeot freak from East Africa..

    1959> 203 saloon x2
    1969> 404L Break
    1986> 505GL Estate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lennix
    Ok, I went around thinking the blocks were similar!? I suppose the difference is in the the bores in the bottom of the block where the sleeves sit and that it is here that some expanding needs to be done?

    By fitting 84mm sleeves I see two advantages beyond power, 1) access to sleeves + pistons/rings and 2) power. Interesting thought. So how is it with the crankshaft of of the early 404, cause judging from the diameter of the pins of an XM that Ive got sitting at home there is a difference.

    The pins from the 203/403 are narrower (Im assuming the the XC 5mains and XM share similar pins + XC 3mains). So if I want to fit early XC pistons what about the pins? And what about the cylinderhead, will the 403 head accommodate the bigger pistons?

    Finally, as parts are quite scarce for these cars now, Im reluctant to settle for a setup that is going to reduce the lifespan of the engine. My intention was in fact putting something together that would be durable for the next many years with frequent use (a couple of days a week). How would the setup with 84mm pistons effect this?

    Naturally the harder you drive the more wear is effected but that is something one can controle to an extent, my worry is more in terms of things breaking due to exceeding its limitations. I gather the 404 3mains had a tendancy to break crankshafts and considering that the XB block has no skirts, Im assuming it is considerably less rigid too?

    The early 404 pistons will fit the 403 con rods, same size small end bush.
    The 403 and 203 blocks have different length between the top of the block and where the liner seal sits as well as different diameter.
    It would be worthwhile enlarging the combustion chamber a little to clear the pistons, also a special head gasket is a good idea, I can get these made here in Melbourne. The XC pistons from a three bearing engine are the best as the compression is then kept fairly low.
    The 403 cranks can break but I have never heard of a three bearing 404 crank breaking they are much bigger than the 403 crank.
    The 403 block is a TN3 not XB which is the 1468cc 404 engine.
    Graham

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    You no doubt know about NeoRetro in France and Fischer in Germany as sources of new parts. We can also help you with second hand bits from Australia. As an indication of what fitting a 403 head to a 203 block does, I looked up the specs for the 403 Sept from 1960. The compression ratio was 7.4 to 1, compared to 7 for a 403 and around 7.25 for a 403B. Power went from 49 gross to 54, but torque only went from 66 to 68 lb ft. A top speed of over 75 mph was claimed for the 403 so it would give a 203 a very respectable performance. Some of these 403's were actually imported into East Africa to run in the under 1300cc class in the Safari, but I suspect the performance would have been limited.

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    Cheers for all you comments and recommendations. Ive now decided to go for the 80mm setup. Still waiting for the conrod bushes but main/cone bearings have been found in Nairobi and Im expecting them to arrive over the weekend. Left to ponder is what camshaft to use? The one that was in the 80mm block is a bit worse off then the one I took out of the 75mm block. But are they the same? I have noticed the 80mm one has two cross-groves where the centre campbush runs and the one from the 75mm has four such groves. The rest apears to be the same. Any other good ideas? Im going to move the almost new Ducellier M43 dizzy and Solex BISAC carb I was using in the 404 to the 203 and get a new set for the 404. I suppose these should do? Last I ran the 203 (10 years ago) I was using some old parts that Ive long given away, cant hardly remember what they were. What about the jetting of for the 403 engine? Im using a 135 mainjet in the 404 to reasonable success but perhaps there are better settings?
    Peugeot freak from East Africa..

    1959> 203 saloon x2
    1969> 404L Break
    1986> 505GL Estate

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    Default 203/403 rebuild.

    Some time ago I lent a small hand in restoring a 203 here in Perth.
    Along with a stack of parts Kerry T inherited was a 203 engine that was believed to have been in a speedboat. Modified to the hilt with individually ported head, 4 Amal carbs and what looked like a high lift cam. The pistons were domed and relieved, believed to be from a 350 Gold Star BSA.
    Interestingly the crankshaft centre main cap had a "bridge" support. I had previous experience of these in Holden engines in a speedcar. Phil Irving's book Automobile Engine Tuning shows this feature along with the theory etc.

    Graham will know of the bridge support.
    Last edited by Wildebeest; 10th February 2006 at 08:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lennix
    Cheers for all you comments and recommendations. Ive now decided to go for the 80mm setup. Still waiting for the conrod bushes but main/cone bearings have been found in Nairobi and Im expecting them to arrive over the weekend. Left to ponder is what camshaft to use? The one that was in the 80mm block is a bit worse off then the one I took out of the 75mm block. But are they the same? I have noticed the 80mm one has two cross-groves where the centre campbush runs and the one from the 75mm has four such groves. The rest apears to be the same. Any other good ideas? Im going to move the almost new Ducellier M43 dizzy and Solex BISAC carb I was using in the 404 to the 203 and get a new set for the 404. I suppose these should do? Last I ran the 203 (10 years ago) I was using some old parts that Ive long given away, cant hardly remember what they were. What about the jetting of for the 403 engine? Im using a 135 mainjet in the 404 to reasonable success but perhaps there are better settings?
    The 403 main jet is 120 and venturi size 23mm, Air corrector is 180 I think
    I can check if you like. I can send you these bits if you like, It is a 32 PBIC.
    The standard 403 settings would be the best.
    The cams will be interchangeable.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Some time ago I lent a small hand in restoring a 203 here in Perth.
    Along with a stack of parts Kerry T inherited was a 203 engine that was believed to have been in a speedboat. Modified to the hilt with individually ported head, 4 Amal carbs and what looked like a high lift cam. The pistons were domed and relieved, believed to be from a 250 Gold Star BSA.
    Interestingly the crankshaft centre main cap had a "bridge" support.
    Queensland Museum has an exhibit of a 50's Wasp (speedboat) using a 403 engine - looks to have some interesting modifications.

    http://www.mms.qld.edu.au/getting-about/wasp.htm

    Cheers
    Chris
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    Yep, thats certainly a tweeked 403 engine complete with individual exhaustpipes, looks both good and fast. I wonder how much power was comming out of it. Im also not sure whether its hp or torque thats the primary concern with boats?

    Concerning the parts for the 403 engine Im putting together Id like to explore how to get the parts here cause it seems you people have the parts around. Here you will be hard pressed to find the carby Graham is mentioning for example. Even a overhaul gasket set is proving difficult. Cylinderhead gasket seems to be the only gasket readily available here. But then we have the curious top gasket for the 403 that mates with the inles mainfold/plenum or whatever ones calls that object. Its hardly a mainfold in traditional terms...

    The jets shouldnt be a problem and thanks for that useful info Graham. If you can reconfirm those details from other sources that would great too, here there is nothing to go from. The few who still run those engines are only keen to see it turning in the right direction and would be using any parts at hand that will enable that...
    Peugeot freak from East Africa..

    1959> 203 saloon x2
    1969> 404L Break
    1986> 505GL Estate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lennix
    Yep, thats certainly a tweeked 403 engine complete with individual exhaustpipes, looks both good and fast. I wonder how much power was comming out of it. Im also not sure whether its hp or torque thats the primary concern with boats?

    Concerning the parts for the 403 engine Im putting together Id like to explore how to get the parts here cause it seems you people have the parts around. Here you will be hard pressed to find the carby Graham is mentioning for example. Even a overhaul gasket set is proving difficult. Cylinderhead gasket seems to be the only gasket readily available here. But then we have the curious top gasket for the 403 that mates with the inles mainfold/plenum or whatever ones calls that object. Its hardly a mainfold in traditional terms...

    The jets shouldnt be a problem and thanks for that useful info Graham. If you can reconfirm those details from other sources that would great too, here there is nothing to go from. The few who still run those engines are only keen to see it turning in the right direction and would be using any parts at hand that will enable that...

    We have heaps of used parts but the same problem as you for the new parts.
    Bearings are the hardest and are unavailable except for private stocks. Gasket sets have been available, not sure of the current situation though.
    Graham

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    NeoRetro list lots of parts like gasket sets and bearings, although I don't know if they're actually in stock. Airmail post is an efficient and fairly cheap way of sending parts but obviously not anything too large. I hate to think how complicated the freight route between Australia and East Africa is.

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    Default Customs duty on imports

    Russel,
    If you order parts from overseas try to keep your order to A$250 or less per order. The duty collected on amounts less than A$250 is less than it costs to process that consignment by customs and most of the time that parcel will go thru with no customs charges.

    The normal customs process is:import duty on value of parcel with GST then calculated on the new value. ie tax on tax..
    Steve V6 ..
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    Thanks for that Steve, I wondered why my orders were slipping through untaxed.

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    Bearings also seem to be a major problem here and as such we are still searching for them in Nairobi. Was expecting some good news by the weekend but as of yet is seems to be a problem. In relation to sending things here by freight/mail Im also worried about safety in terms loosing part or the whole consignment to theft, especially on this end where the services are not as reliable as in Europe and Australia. Does anyone know what guarantees the the supplier gives in relation to frieght, who bears the responsiblity for the items once shipped?
    Peugeot freak from East Africa..

    1959> 203 saloon x2
    1969> 404L Break
    1986> 505GL Estate

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    If you don't insure the parcel then you bear any losses. When posting to some countries insurance is not acecpted because the risk of loss is too high. Check with the business whom you are ordering from. Some businesses do not insure parcels because it creates hassles when sending or if someome wants to make a claim. Usually it is safer to send/recieve by air mail mainly because it is quicker.

    Sometimes insurance is included with the cost of air freight BUT that charge I have found can seem to be excessive.

    I've ordered parts from the UK to Australia and from the time I hang up the phone the parts were at my front door in a week.
    Steve V6 ..
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    Default Arusha

    PS,
    I've been wondering where Arusha was. I thought it was a country town in New South Wales!!

    Certain I've seen that name on a sign when on one of my Pug drives with the wife in Oz, not as far west as you are though.
    Steve V6 ..
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    Hi Steve, yes Im afraid there are no roads in Oz that lead to the Arusha Im in, you would have to cross quite a bit of ocean first and with a bit of luck you should find Dar es Salaam or Mombassa on the East African coast. From there you will have a days drive in land to reach Arusha. Its realy the tourism capital of Tanzania as we have Kilimanjaro about 100kms from here + Serengeti and Ngorongoro crater are both within a days reach from here. So this is the place where most safaris are outfitted. Nairobi in Kenya is 300kms to the north from here and is the source of most Peugoet parts if you want them original.
    Peugeot freak from East Africa..

    1959> 203 saloon x2
    1969> 404L Break
    1986> 505GL Estate

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