306Gti6 Passive rear wheel steer
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! dhaw's Avatar
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    Default 306Gti6 Passive rear wheel steer

    Has anyone hacked into any sensitive websites to obtain specs and diagrams on exactly how the passive rear wheel steering on GTI 6s work.
    I have read descriptions of how it works and why it works and even seen a very basic diagram provided in the GTI 6 questions thread but would be fascinated to to see more detailed specs.

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! mmm...CORNERS's Avatar
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    I dont think it's anything too tricky. From what I understand, the suspension design with torsion bar and it geometry allows a certain amount of distorsion and wheel angle changes ( in certain directions) and it's simply the building forces of cornering that turn the wheel in/out, that creates the passive rear steer effect. Under the rear of a 306 is very simple. People laugh at corvettes having transverse leaf springs, but torsion bar set-ups are almost as old!

    Most other manufactures keep it all stiff so this dosent happen (safer handling). I may be completely off here though.

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    The Corvette's leaves are made from fibreglass, so you could say that technology wise, they're newer!

    The main issues with leaves isn't the age, but their operation. Poor linearity amongst other things. Torsion bars are the equal of coils in operation.

    Stuey


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  4. #4
    Member flyNxsi's Avatar
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    the mounts for the rear suspension assembly are rubber and kinda twist when cornering.
    each mount looks like two blocks of rubber ontop of each other with a rubber web down the sides too allow movement and hold together. the two blocks slide over each other like when you rub youre hands together sorta thing. its all one peice.very simple but bloody effective.
    the only down side that has caught me off guard when i first pushed it hard round a corner is that when you back off suddenly it felt like it gets side ways and wants too come round. because the suspension assembly doesnt have load on it anymore and moves in the opposite direction like the car is going in a straight line again. you just dont back off or back off slower.
    one time i came round a slightly straighter than 90 degree left corner which was 2 lanes,me moving quickly( 70ish ). half way through the corner ,because it off cambers quickly between the 2 lanes, it felt like it was going to come around so i backed off suddenly and corrected which caused it too actually get sideways. fish tailing continued over both lanes for 50 meters easy. oooooooopppppppppssssssssss!!!!!
    scared the absolute crap outa me but would have looked bloody awsome too see a front wheel drive do that.....
    still i would not get rid of the passive steering for anything. since i learnt how to use to my advantage i had heaps of fun out cornering people on outside lanes.
    i speed up for round abouts,corners and chikanes

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Kyle's Avatar
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    Ok so if it uses rubber bushes it wouldn't be too hard to have them removed and replaced by something solid that has no give...?

  6. #6
    Member flyNxsi's Avatar
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    i remember seeing on a site in england,peugeot sport site or somthn, maybe www.boutiquepeugeot.com (dont work on my computer,dno y)for the race cars there you can get replacment solid mounts. the site had heaps of race stuff for sale, bolt in roll cages,performance engine\gearbox parts heaps of atha stuff. give it a go,mite work and you mite find somthn.
    i speed up for round abouts,corners and chikanes

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! WRCPUG's Avatar
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    PEUGEOT 306 GTi6 (1997-1999 HYBRID)
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Geez they really are quite clueless on that forum. That bikeman guy got it completely the wrong way around thinking the passive rear steer induces understeer. His car probably handled like that, because as he mentions in one of his posts, his rear beam was stuffed anyway.

    Not worth putting solid mounts and removing the passive rear steer unless the car was to be used purely on a track. The rear steer is what gives the car it's fantastic cornering ability on real roads. It can be a bit eery if you're not used to it, but as they say..practise makes perfect!
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  9. #9
    Member pptn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyNxsi
    i backed off suddenly and corrected which caused it too actually get sideways. fish tailing continued over both lanes for 50 meters easy. oooooooopppppppppssssssssss!!!!!
    this is lift-off oversteer right? crazy stuff if you can do it in an xsi!
    sounds like awesome fun.
    '98 306 ... looking for an upgrade! MY00 gti6 anyone?

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Trixie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyNxsi
    the mounts for the rear suspension assembly are rubber and kinda twist when cornering.
    each mount looks like two blocks of rubber ontop of each other with a rubber web down the sides too allow movement and hold together. the two blocks slide over each other like when you rub youre hands together sorta thing. its all one peice.very simple but bloody effective.
    the only down side that has caught me off guard when i first pushed it hard round a corner is that when you back off suddenly it felt like it gets side ways and wants too come round. because the suspension assembly doesnt have load on it anymore and moves in the opposite direction like the car is going in a straight line again. you just dont back off or back off slower.
    one time i came round a slightly straighter than 90 degree left corner which was 2 lanes,me moving quickly( 70ish ). half way through the corner ,because it off cambers quickly between the 2 lanes, it felt like it was going to come around so i backed off suddenly and corrected which caused it too actually get sideways. fish tailing continued over both lanes for 50 meters easy. oooooooopppppppppssssssssss!!!!!
    scared the absolute crap outa me but would have looked bloody awsome too see a front wheel drive do that.....
    still i would not get rid of the passive steering for anything. since i learnt how to use to my advantage i had heaps of fun out cornering people on outside lanes.
    Hmmm, I think that's lift-off oversteer due to the weight being transferred to the front. The passive rear-steer PSA use is designed to alter the angle of the rear wheels to turn the car into a corner when subject to high cornering forces. If you are in a sweeper and you push harder the car will feel it might understeer then you feel the weight go onto the outside rear wheel and the rear moves around gently a couple of degrees, neutralising the stance. My first experience was with a ZX 14 renter in the south of France. It was addictive, blimey that could corner well and the rear-steer just added another dimension. The Xantia has it and its works delightfully in concert with the oleopneumatics. Old South Head Rd bends are a good spot to try this. Heading back towards Rose Bay on the downhill left-hander, enter at 60 or so and give it plenty of gas - passive rear steer and round she goes .
    John

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  11. #11
    Member Linchpin's Avatar
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    Does the XSi have this feature too?
    306 Xsi 16V

    1997 306 XSi 16V, Full Stainless Exhaust, Pipercross Induction Kit, JVC / Pioneer ICE

  12. #12
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    it's a design feature in all the 306's as far as i know... it's not lift off overstear...

    as stated thats to do with weight transfer, not the movement of the bushes...

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie
    Hmmm, I think that's lift-off oversteer due to the weight being transferred to the front. The passive rear-steer PSA use is designed to alter the angle of the rear wheels to turn the car into a corner when subject to high cornering forces. If you are in a sweeper and you push harder the car will feel it might understeer then you feel the weight go onto the outside rear wheel and the rear moves around gently a couple of degrees, neutralising the stance. My first experience was with a ZX 14 renter in the south of France. It was addictive, blimey that could corner well and the rear-steer just added another dimension. The Xantia has it and its works delightfully in concert with the oleopneumatics. Old South Head Rd bends are a good spot to try this. Heading back towards Rose Bay on the downhill left-hander, enter at 60 or so and give it plenty of gas - passive rear steer and round she goes .
    Yep spot on. If you're not used to the feeling, it may feel like the rear is 'stepping' out, but it's only the rear wheels steering a few degrees out. The thing is, when the suspension is loaded like this and the rear steer is in effect, lifting of the throttle suddenly causes weight transfer to the front and suddenly the rear wheels are unloaded. The result is the rear subframe rubbers that were loaded are now suddenly unloaded and the rear wheels revert back to their original orientation. This sudden change of slip angle at the rear is what causes the lift off oversteer to be pronounced in these cars. But once you get used to it and know how it behaves, you can actually use it purposely in real tight corners to slide the back out and point the car hard into the corner. Though it's not easy doing that nice and tidy. The beauty with having this trait in a fwd is that you can hit the gas and pull yourself out of the slide. Lift off oversteer in rwd cars is scaaary.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  14. #14
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U Turn
    Yep spot on. If you're not used to the feeling, it may feel like the rear is 'stepping' out, but it's only the rear wheels steering a few degrees out. The thing is, when the suspension is loaded like this and the rear steer is in effect, lifting of the throttle suddenly causes weight transfer to the front and suddenly the rear wheels are unloaded. The result is the rear subframe rubbers that were loaded are now suddenly unloaded and the rear wheels revert back to their original orientation. This sudden change of slip angle at the rear is what causes the lift off oversteer to be pronounced in these cars. But once you get used to it and know how it behaves, you can actually use it purposely in real tight corners to slide the back out and point the car hard into the corner. Though it's not easy doing that nice and tidy. The beauty with having this trait in a fwd is that you can hit the gas and pull yourself out of the slide. Lift off oversteer in rwd cars is scaaary.
    You can induce lift off oversteer in both pushers and pullers. Personally I like the control of a front driver at the limit, with throttle control allowing the back to come around and maintain a good line through a corner. Magnas have always shone as a great handling big front wheel driver.

    It may come as some surprise to you but Daihatsu had passive rear wheel steering in their G100/102 hatches (think CR 1.3 litres '89 - 93). Same deal, (it was all in the bushing) but with a decent multi-link independent rear end, not Euro torsion bar rubbish. Even VW with its Golf have moved away from the solid torsion bar for an independent back end after it had a look under the bum of a Focus...

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404
    You can induce lift off oversteer in both pushers and pullers. Personally I like the control of a front driver at the limit, with throttle control allowing the back to come around and maintain a good line through a corner. Magnas have always shone as a great handling big front wheel driver.

    It may come as some surprise to you but Daihatsu had passive rear wheel steering in their G100/102 hatches (think CR 1.3 litres '89 - 93). Same deal, (it was all in the bushing) but with a decent multi-link independent rear end, not Euro torsion bar rubbish. Even VW with its Golf have moved away from the solid torsion bar for an independent back end after it had a look under the bum of a Focus...

    i quite like the 'euro torsion bar rubbish'

    have you driven a GTi-6 in anger ?
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  16. #16
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    i quite like the 'euro torsion bar rubbish'

    have you driven a GTi-6 in anger ?
    Ahh....no

    Bet the next one has an independent rear end though, if only for specification bragging rights...

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    I think the passive rear steer was marketed as some sort of new improved handling thingy, but I reckon it was an attempt to fix the hairy/dangerous ( for the average driver) lift off oversteer of the 205 without blunting its snappy handling too much.
    This was in conjunction with the increased negative camber of the 306's rear end.

    68 404 said" Personally I like the control of a front driver at the limit, with throttle control allowing the back to come around and maintain a good line through a corner. Magnas have always shone as a great handling big front wheel drive.
    Magna's.... YUK. It's not the tendency of too many FWD's to oversteer. More understeer issues I reckon.
    Anyway. If it's an Italian FWD the tendency will be to tighten the line of the front end or widen it. They don't get so snappy at the back.
    "Now my dream lies shattered like the shards of a broken dream"

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404
    Ahh....no

    Bet the next one has an independent rear end though, if only for specification bragging rights...

    the 306 does have an independent rear end
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  19. #19
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    the 306 does have an independent rear end
    I stand corrected. Still bet the next one will have a multi link set up though

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404
    I stand corrected. Still bet the next one will have a multi link set up though

    take a GTi-6 for a good drive you will be hooked and i'll guarantee you will never want to jump back in a magna ever again or most anything else

    any GTi-6 owner will say the same thing

    they are awesome machines and in a league of their own
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    The claim by Renault was that by design the R12/15/17 had passive rear steering a long time before the rest. After having a number of said Renaults and Pugs, I could not say that I felt it working, only that the various cars handled well on both road and track.
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    Fellow Frogger! mmm...CORNERS's Avatar
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    any 306 is in a different league, espescially compared to a magna!!! besides, the weight of a magna will give it drastically different characteristics. If any thing, I'd say the torsion bar setup, works very effectively, but in terms of refinement, and adjustability, the multi-link setups work well.

    Still, like 'Rambo said, drive a GTi6 in anger and it all makes sense.

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! Kyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmm...CORNERS
    any 306 is in a different league, espescially compared to a magna!!! besides, the weight of a magna will give it drastically different characteristics. If any thing, I'd say the torsion bar setup, works very effectively, but in terms of refinement, and adjustability, the multi-link setups work well.

    Still, like 'Rambo said, drive a GTi6 in anger and it all makes sense.
    S16's aren't far behind you know

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! mmm...CORNERS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle
    S16's aren't far behind you know

    sorry, I should say ALL 306 are fun, but the ones are S16 AND GTi6

    better?

  25. #25
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmm...CORNERS
    any 306 is in a different league, espescially compared to a magna!!! besides, the weight of a magna will give it drastically different characteristics. If any thing, I'd say the torsion bar setup, works very effectively, but in terms of refinement, and adjustability, the multi-link setups work well.

    Still, like 'Rambo said, drive a GTi6 in anger and it all makes sense.
    Just for the record, I have never owned a Magna

    They are still a great drive for a BIG front driver

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