505 camber issues
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 505 camber issues

    I have a '91 Series 2 505 wagon with about 260,000 kms.
    After having the front end rebushed, new joints etc, it is really tight. I've also put new boots on (BFG's)- about a grand all up.
    The wheel alignment is a problem. The car should run camber of zero degrees. Plus or minus 1/2 degree (ie. positive or negative) is within specification. My car is running at -2and1/2 degrees negative camber. There is no adjustment.
    As the car ages the problem gets worse. I believe that this is due to fatigue in the monocoque suspension turrets. The new tyres will not last long with rapid wear on the inner tread.
    Two thoughts about a solution are;
    1 Use a Porta-power (?) hydraulic ram to spread the turrets back to spec.
    2 Rig up a brace and wind it out.
    Looking at other 505's, I know the problem is fairly common. I did a forum search but didn't find any help. Help!

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  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M
    I have a '91 Series 2 505 wagon with about 260,000 kms.
    After having the front end rebushed, new joints etc, it is really tight. I've also put new boots on (BFG's)- about a grand all up.
    The wheel alignment is a problem. The car should run camber of zero degrees. Plus or minus 1/2 degree (ie. positive or negative) is within specification. My car is running at -2and1/2 degrees negative camber. There is no adjustment.
    As the car ages the problem gets worse. I believe that this is due to fatigue in the monocoque suspension turrets. The new tyres will not last long with rapid wear on the inner tread.
    Two thoughts about a solution are;
    1 Use a Porta-power (?) hydraulic ram to spread the turrets back to spec.
    2 Rig up a brace and wind it out.
    Looking at other 505's, I know the problem is fairly common. I did a forum search but didn't find any help. Help!

    nothing to do with the strength or lack there of in the body

    it's the springs that have sagged over time

    new springs back up to the original height will cure your problem
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M
    I have a '91 Series 2 505 wagon with about 260,000 kms.
    After having the front end rebushed, new joints etc, it is really tight. I've also put new boots on (BFG's)- about a grand all up.
    The wheel alignment is a problem. The car should run camber of zero degrees. Plus or minus 1/2 degree (ie. positive or negative) is within specification. My car is running at -2and1/2 degrees negative camber. There is no adjustment.
    As the car ages the problem gets worse. I believe that this is due to fatigue in the monocoque suspension turrets. The new tyres will not last long with rapid wear on the inner tread.
    Two thoughts about a solution are;
    1 Use a Porta-power (?) hydraulic ram to spread the turrets back to spec.
    2 Rig up a brace and wind it out.
    Looking at other 505's, I know the problem is fairly common. I did a forum search but didn't find any help. Help!
    As 'Rambo suggested, sagging springs are usually (99% of the time) the problem.

    However, a couple of degrees negative camber is not going to affect your tread wear all that much. Sedan GTi's came from the factory with 2 degrees negative camber, and I've never had a problem with uneven tread wear. My car has 535,000 kms on it, springs are very sagged, now running about 3.5 degrees negative on the front. Last set of tyres lasted me 40,000 kms and wore evenly the entire time. They were rotated regularly, and tyre pressures were kept at a consistent 34 psi on the front and 36psi on the back.

    Uneven tread wear is primarily caused by one thing - excessive toe-in or toe-out. A 505 front suspension and steering setup ideally should have about 2 degrees negative camber and about 0.5 degrees toe-in, to facilitate correct self-centering of the steering wheel.

    Also, on the back of 505 sedans, as the springs sag or the silent blocks fail, camber and toe-in are increased together, which will cause undue tyre wear.

    I've seen a lot of 505s, and have never even heard of the body deforming, this goes for 504s, 604s and 505s. We're not talking about some second-grade steel constructed korean sh1tbox, this is some serious french engineering. The only deformation I have ever seen in a 505 was one where the driver's side front wheel sat about 1/2" further back than the passenger side one, and that was due to a previous accident where you could still see crease marks under the front guards. THAT was a headache to get the front wheels aligned. Even so, the tyres on it are still wearing evenly after 20,000kms.

    So stress less. If you need the ground clearance, or prefer the firmer ride and more responsive feel of new springs, go for it. Otherwise relax, your tyres aren't going to disintegrate overnight.
    Scotty

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M
    I have a '91 Series 2 505 wagon with about 260,000 kms.
    After having the front end rebushed, new joints etc, it is really tight. I've also put new boots on (BFG's)- about a grand all up.
    The wheel alignment is a problem. The car should run camber of zero degrees. Plus or minus 1/2 degree (ie. positive or negative) is within specification. My car is running at -2and1/2 degrees negative camber. There is no adjustment.
    As the car ages the problem gets worse. I believe that this is due to fatigue in the monocoque suspension turrets. The new tyres will not last long with rapid wear on the inner tread.
    Two thoughts about a solution are;
    1 Use a Porta-power (?) hydraulic ram to spread the turrets back to spec.
    2 Rig up a brace and wind it out.
    Looking at other 505's, I know the problem is fairly common. I did a forum search but didn't find any help. Help!
    My 505 GTi has heaps of negative camber, mostly due to sagged springs I would think.
    It has bad tyre wear issues, I wear the front tyres down to the wire on the inside whilst the rest of the tyre is still OK.
    If you really don't like the negative camber then install struts from a 505 GR, these have a different angle on the stub axle.
    Late GR stuts use the removable ball joint like the later negative camber cars.
    You will need the lower control arm as well for the early GR struts.
    Graham
    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 25th October 2005 at 09:46 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default 505 camber issues

    Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it!

    I drew myself some diagrams to work out what was happening. As the springs shorten, the lower suspension arm angle rises, thus lifting the stub axle from the horizontal.

    So far, so good?

    Is this suggestion logical and viable?

    Is there any way that a "C" shaped spacer (something akin to a horse-shoe perhaps?) could be inserted at the base of the spring to effectively regain the length lost by spring compression?

    I would prefer NOT to re-assemble the front end, nor to purchase new (or re-temper) the springs.

    If this is not possible are ther any other solutions?

    PS I'm sorry for suggesting a design or manufacturing issue as the cause of the problem. I do know better, this car has carried us 'round Australia. In fact I'm pleased to know that it is a relatively simple fix.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Dave

    Come on, what's a bit of tyre wear when you've got such great handling! Surely we're not getting old?

    The blue wagon has always had really noticeable neg camber, and it turns like a sports car. Front tyre wear hasn't been any worse than I would have expected, so maybe your toe setting is the real culprit? The current Pirellis are even, or they were before Mike took it North! The wagon is having a holiday up in Newcastle, so it's getting a bit of a caning I suspect!

    I'd definitely discount the strut brace theory unless there are obvious cracks anywhere. They just don't come much stronger than a 505.

    As far as the saggy springs theory goes, it definitely has merit, but I would have thought the effect would not be all that noticeable as far as camber goes. And the last time I saw your beast I didn't think it was any lower in the front than mine. The early wagons always looked like they were driving downhill, and early springs seemed to sag remarkably, but most GTi wagons I've seen sit relatively level. Is yours down at the front at all?

    The GTi wagons like yours and mine always seemed to me to have a lot of camber, as does Dan's GTi sedan. Anyway, where'd you get the 0 degrees figure? I've yet to see a GTi with wheels going straight up and down anyway. Perhaps all the new bits need to settle down a bit yet. Once she settles in, that crisp handling should be back with a vengeance!

    Incidentally, since we put the STi struts on the 504 Ti the neg camber has been rather amazing! Mike & Steve have gone into raptures over the cornering capabilities. (And the Pirellis are still looking evenly worn across the tread.)

    Hang in there, my Son!

    PS (And who's kidding who about the 260,000. Aren't we counting the ones since the speedo cable went west? Blue Beast is over 330,000 and still going strong. [subject to comments re current driver, see above])

    Cheers, Pottsy.
    Last edited by pottsy; 25th October 2005 at 10:07 PM.
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  7. #7
    Member LynCliff's Avatar
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    I learnt years ago with 604's that the negative camber is not an issue with tyre wear if you use more toe in, the amount governed by using the suck it see methods of adjustment. Try adding about 2mm more toe in than recommended for a start and see if it helps with tyre wear and if it still seems to be doing it , add a bit more. It took me months of trial and error to get the first 604 right but following sets of tyres did around 60000km and wore flat. I ended up with nearly double the recommended toe in.

    I do my own alignments with a simple measuring device wich is just a piece of plastic conduit with steel ruler slid in one end and a screw through the side of the conduit onto the ruler to hold it. I then just measure between the front tyres at at the front and rear of the rim. This gives you a rough measurement to start with and shows you the change when you adjust the toe in.

    Garages measure from one rim edge to the opposite rim edge and the amount measured there is less than at the tyre.

    On our 504 rally car has 3.5deg of negative camber and ended up with about standard toe in but I was'nt concerned with tyre wear on the dirt I just wanted it to turn in nicely.

    Regards, LynClff.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    According to my reference, the estate front end should be:

    +3,+or- 1 MM Toe in.
    -55' +or- 30' Camber.
    +2Deg30' +or- 30' Castor.
    +9Deg25' +or-30' King pin inclunation.

    Keep winding on the toe. The last alignment the "tecnician", (I use the term lightly), had adjusted the front to O deg toe ,"because all European Cars run O toe in"----WRONG. currently at 4 DEG and tyres are fine.
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
    2003 T5 307 HDI
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  9. #9
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    Default 505 camber issues

    Thanks, all.

    My wheel aligner says that there is too much camber to fully compensated with toe in adjustments. The zero camber figure I quoted is off the computer (Beissbarth) printout as the target figure.
    Toe in before the work was L +7.7mm and R -18.7mm. Certainly an issue there. The last set of tyres lasted 9 months.
    It is now running L + 0.7mm and R + 0.6mm.
    But on reading the target data a figure of +3.7mm is used for toe-in. Gamma this is exactly what you're saying. I get a free check in 5000km - about Jan holiday time. I'll certainly check the tyre wear and if its an issue at that stage I'll get the man to wind on more toe. I don't know why he didn't do it from the outset.
    The turn in has always been fantastic and for such a big car it is rewarding to drive.
    And Ray, the speedo works, but the odo reads 102,000km. It's not counting and nor should you!

    Thanks again.

  10. #10
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M
    Thanks, all.

    My wheel aligner says that there is too much camber to fully compensated with toe in adjustments. The zero camber figure I quoted is off the computer (Beissbarth) printout as the target figure.
    Toe in before the work was L +7.7mm and R -18.7mm. Certainly an issue there. The last set of tyres lasted 9 months.
    It is now running L + 0.7mm and R + 0.6mm.
    But on reading the target data a figure of +3.7mm is used for toe-in. Gamma this is exactly what you're saying. I get a free check in 5000km - about Jan holiday time. I'll certainly check the tyre wear and if its an issue at that stage I'll get the man to wind on more toe. I don't know why he didn't do it from the outset.
    The turn in has always been fantastic and for such a big car it is rewarding to drive.
    And Ray, the speedo works, but the odo reads 102,000km. It's not counting and nor should you!

    Thanks again.

    your toe is all wrong

    take it back to him and ask him to try again and this time get it right as per the specs and make sure you have nothing in the back of the car weighing it down as this can upset things as well

    if you still feel you think you have too much camber then you can always put a spacer above the struts to raise the front end a little
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M
    Thanks, all.

    My wheel aligner says that there is too much camber to fully compensated with toe in adjustments. The zero camber figure I quoted is off the computer (Beissbarth) printout as the target figure.
    Toe in before the work was L +7.7mm and R -18.7mm. Certainly an issue there. The last set of tyres lasted 9 months.
    It is now running L + 0.7mm and R + 0.6mm.
    But on reading the target data a figure of +3.7mm is used for toe-in. Gamma this is exactly what you're saying. I get a free check in 5000km - about Jan holiday time. I'll certainly check the tyre wear and if its an issue at that stage I'll get the man to wind on more toe. I don't know why he didn't do it from the outset.
    The turn in has always been fantastic and for such a big car it is rewarding to drive.
    And Ray, the speedo works, but the odo reads 102,000km. It's not counting and nor should you!

    Thanks again.
    Its hard to suggest exactly how much Toe in you need without knowing other things about the car. A good start is 3mm toe in and work from there.

    The figures you have now are close but may give you vague steering and slight wobble under braking. If all feels ok then take the, do nothing, approach until the 5k check up.

    I am supprised you could get the 505 into the drive with your origional figures, the poor thing must have been crabbing up the road sideways.
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
    2003 T5 307 HDI
    2013 LandRover90
    Sacred cows make the best hamburger mince.
    If you run, you only die tired

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