504 Tailshaft
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Thread: 504 Tailshaft

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 504 Tailshaft

    Hi,
    on Sunday i pulled out in the wet in my 504, and pushed it hard in second gear - trying to get oversteer.
    Towed it back and pulled the diff out, and the splines on the diff and the tailshaft at the diff end were fine. Pulled the tailshaft out, absolutely no teeth left at the gearbox end - it was almost smooth!
    I put a 505 one in to replace it, and it works fine - perfect rive, and feels alot smoother. However, when travelling at high speeds (100kms - above), i can hear and feel vibrations.
    Is this because the tailshaft has weights on it to balance it? Are 504 tailshafts balanced differently to 505 shafts? Has anyone else ever replaced a tailshaft before, had any dramas with it?
    Would putting a new tailshaft in cause the vibrations?

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    Thanks,
    Andrew

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roo504
    Hi,
    on Sunday i pulled out in the wet in my 504, and pushed it hard in second gear - trying to get oversteer.
    Towed it back and pulled the diff out, and the splines on the diff and the tailshaft at the diff end were fine. Pulled the tailshaft out, absolutely no teeth left at the gearbox end - it was almost smooth!
    I put a 505 one in to replace it, and it works fine - perfect rive, and feels alot smoother. However, when travelling at high speeds (100kms - above), i can hear and feel vibrations.
    Is this because the tailshaft has weights on it to balance it? Are 504 tailshafts balanced differently to 505 shafts? Has anyone else ever replaced a tailshaft before, had any dramas with it?
    Would putting a new tailshaft in cause the vibrations?

    Thanks,
    Andrew
    Sounds like a dead tailshaft centre bearing to me. Unless the diameter of the 504 and 505 shafts are different where the bearing supports it? I don't think they are though, I've successfully swapped them before without any hassles.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roo504
    Hi,
    on Sunday i pulled out in the wet in my 504, and pushed it hard in second gear - trying to get oversteer.
    Towed it back and pulled the diff out, and the splines on the diff and the tailshaft at the diff end were fine. Pulled the tailshaft out, absolutely no teeth left at the gearbox end - it was almost smooth!
    I put a 505 one in to replace it, and it works fine - perfect rive, and feels alot smoother. However, when travelling at high speeds (100kms - above), i can hear and feel vibrations.
    Is this because the tailshaft has weights on it to balance it? Are 504 tailshafts balanced differently to 505 shafts? Has anyone else ever replaced a tailshaft before, had any dramas with it?
    Would putting a new tailshaft in cause the vibrations?

    Thanks,
    Andrew
    Andrew,
    Stripped a spline on driveshaft on one of my 504's. Previous owner was a butcher of a mechanic and had let the bolts connecting torque tube to rear of gearbox come loose. The out of allignment wore out the splines until one day I booted the car around an intersection there was a muffled crunch and all attempts at forward motion were met with a grinding noise. Different gear, different frequency.
    To be on the safe side I replaced both gearbox and shaft from another 504.
    Not sure what your vibration problems could be. Has the shaft been in storage? Could it have been stored such that it may have bent/drooped?

    Paul,
    504-504-504,
    Northern Outpost.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    403 & 404 have different bearing journal positioning, 504 to 505?

    ed ge

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    Andrew,


    You'll have to learn to drive a bit more sedately. I have just compared the two driveshafts I have up in my shed, one off a 504 and one off a 505. Both are 42mm dia with 47mm bearing journals. The journals are in the same place. They are the same length too. In fact, I'd say they're identical. Both driveshafts have weights on them for balance and they're fairly firmly fixed, they won't come off in a hurry.

    Apparently the bolts that hold the gearbox to the torque tube coming loose is a fairly common problem on the 504. This had happened to my 504. After tightening them it still had a faint viabration coming from the driveshaft. I think some damage had been done to the centre bearing. You could always pull it out again and put a dial guage on it to see what the runout is. Get the balance checked also.

    Matt.
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  6. #6
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    Hi guys,
    the shaft i put in had a very small amount of surface rust on the bearing, i cleaned this off and geased it before putting it back in.
    I suppose the centre bearing could be buggeed, but there were no marks on it, or discolouration - seemed perfect. As Ralph - Matt said (cheers), the dimensions of both 505 and 504 shafts are the same, so there shouldn't be any problem. All i can think of is that the balance weights on the 505 shaft may be put in a different position than those on a 504 shaft - could you please check this for me Matt, would be a great help. Hopefully they are in the same place, and perhaps the problem then is that something needs tightning up again - will do this tonight.

    I have a 505 BA10/5 gearbox in my 504, and because i am using my 504 torque tube, the torque tube has a slight lip on it where it meets the gearbox, i had to use washers to space it out from the box slightly. It was all a sweet fit, no bad alignment. However i would like to get rid of the lip one day. Perhaps what i could do is get a 504 torque tube with shaft (in good nic.), grind the lip off and put that in.

    Is there a problem with putting a different tailshaft ino a different torque tube, similar to, say, using a different big end cap on a different con rod? I'm not sure if the bearing on the tailshaft wears as much as something like abearing or not - does anyone know? I simply assumed not.
    The shaft had been in storage, but only for a month or two; it was a spare for my cousin's race car!

    Cheers,
    Andrew

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Ralph's Avatar
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    Andrew,

    The weights are going to be in different positions on every driveshaft. No two will be in exactly the same position. It's like your wheels when they are balanced, the weights are put opposite of the heaviest part of the wheel to try and balance out the forces when it is rotating, every wheel is different. I've included a picture of the two driveshafts as trying to describe them is futile. The one on the left (504) has one weight and the right hand one (505) has three. On the bigger picture you can also see a slight wear mark where the centre bearing has been.

    There's a larger picture here http://home.exetel.com.au/nosneb/car...Shaft_0282.JPG for a better view. As long as the driveshafts are correctly balanced and running true, there should be no viabration. Interestingly the Haynes manual calls the outer tube a link tube in the saloons and a torque tube in the estates.

    Matt.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 504 Tailshaft-drive-shaft_0282-small.jpg  
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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    that really has to be the most photographed dog ever

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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Those two drive shafts are taller than that dog.

    Obviously in for size comparison.

    cheers

    ed ge

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Ralph's Avatar
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    Andrew,

    You haven't put the thing in back to front? The end with the groove goes to the rear. I the photo I posted its at the top, furthest from the dog. Also there's a spring that fits inside the drive shaft and butts up to the diff input shaft. Leaving this out could cause problems.

    Matt.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 504 Tailshaft-driveshaft.jpg  
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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    ps thanks for the photo ralph, I look like I died and someone propped me up!

    ed ge

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    [QUOTE=Ralph]Andrew,

    The weights are going to be in different positions on every driveshaft. No two will be in exactly the same position. It's like your wheels when they are balanced, the weights are put opposite of the heaviest part of the wheel to try and balance out the forces when it is rotating, every wheel is different. I've included a picture of the two driveshafts as trying to describe them is futile. The one on the left (504) has one weight and the right hand one (505) has three. On the bigger picture you can also see a slight wear mark where the centre bearing has been.


    Cheers Matt,
    i think the vibration could possibly be because of weights being in a different area, in a different torque tube. What i'm going to do is put in a 505 torque tube and the shaft that comes with it - hopefully this will fix all problems.
    With the vibration fixed, the only other problems i can think of would be gearbox related. Whether the spline is worn, and whether the bearing at the rear of the box (where tailshaft goes in) is worn. I believe neither of these are a problem though. I had clunkiness before i replaced the tailshaft, and now that is gone - therefore i don't believe the splines are worn. I checked out the part of the tailshaft where it enters the gearbox bearing, and it loked perfet - no discolouration or markings.

    This should be s job of simply changing the torque tube and shaft over. On top of pulling the tailshaft out, al i need to do is drp the rear crossmember, take off all exhaust mountings to the torque tube, and unbolt it from the gearbox - is this unbolting difficult, are the nuts hard to get to?

    Thanks (esp. Matt).
    Cheers,
    Andrew

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Torque tube..

    Andrew,
    The lip that you had to space out with washers is a register to enable the tube to align with the gearbox. The bolts are to hold them together. It's a big ask to expect the bolts alone to cope with alignment.

    Matt's remarks about the drive shaft and tube not being matched assemblies for balancing purposes is correct.

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