505SLi Fuel Injection System?
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Icon5 505SLi Fuel Injection System?

    I've recently purchased (after cajoling from my former 504-owning boyfriend) a 505 SLi Series II manual.

    He's at a bit of a loss. Having bought a manual for it, we can't work out WHAT fuel system is in it. It's not either of the ones in the manual. We took it to Alpine Motors, who called it a "Poverty Pack Peugeot" (thanks), and Continental, who said they'd not seen one like it for years, and knew nothing much about it.

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    Later, we took it for a dynotune. They thought it had a water leak from the missing on startup. After a pressure test, they decided it must be a weeping injector, or possible fuel pressure problem. We took it away - not tuned. The next time we tried to start it, nothing! Had spark, so we wiggled a lot of connectors etc, and it started!

    What could it be? And where can we get info on this thing? It really needs a tune, but we don't want to do that unless we can determine the cause of the startup miss.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monica505SLi
    I've recently purchased (after cajoling from my former 504-owning boyfriend) a 505 SLi Series II manual.

    He's at a bit of a loss. Having bought a manual for it, we can't work out WHAT fuel system is in it. It's not either of the ones in the manual. We took it to Alpine Motors, who called it a "Poverty Pack Peugeot" (thanks), and Continental, who said they'd not seen one like it for years, and knew nothing much about it.

    Later, we took it for a dynotune. They thought it had a water leak from the missing on startup. After a pressure test, they decided it must be a weeping injector, or possible fuel pressure problem. We took it away - not tuned. The next time we tried to start it, nothing! Had spark, so we wiggled a lot of connectors etc, and it started!

    What could it be? And where can we get info on this thing? It really needs a tune, but we don't want to do that unless we can determine the cause of the startup miss.
    It's K-Jetronic, basically the same as the STi.
    It was designed for the American market but sold in Australia to replace the 505SR after unleaded fuel was introduced in 1986.
    I don't think it would be a leaking injector as these do not shut off but simply spray fuel as supplied. Maybe the fuel distributor/air flow meter unit may be at fault?
    Graham

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    Fellow Frogger! seesully's Avatar
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    I'm not too sure, but I imagine that your SLI would have the K-Jet fuel injection system that is also found in the STI/Executive. This is a mechanical system and is pretty reliable, but can be an absolute dog if not tuned correctly.

    There are a few great repairers for old Pugs around Melbourne. I'm surprised to hear that Alpine Affair didn't know much about it.

    Here's a couple of others to try:

    Virage Motors
    17 York Street
    South Melbourne
    9690 4283
    Ask for Karl (this is where I used to take my STI)

    French Garage
    112-114 Keys Road
    Moorabbin
    9555 4248 or 0412 391 205
    Ask for Elliot (haven't been there, but this place is apparently really good!)

    Cheers,
    Chris
    Les hurlements de lion.
    504 GL (gone)
    205 GTI Classic (gone)
    505 STI (gone)
    I can feel a GTI 180 coming on!

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    Fellow Frogger! seesully's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seesully
    I'm not too sure, but I imagine that your SLI would have the K-Jet fuel injection system that is also found in the STI/Executive.
    Sorry for stating what Graham just wrote all over again... Looks as though we might have been postin a reply at the same time!

    Graham, surely the K-Jet system was in Australia before 1986, my '83 STI had it as did he Executive models didn't they?
    Les hurlements de lion.
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    205 GTI Classic (gone)
    505 STI (gone)
    I can feel a GTI 180 coming on!

  5. #5
    nJm
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    It was but it had never been used on the XN 2L pushrod engine before, hence the SLI replacing the SR which was the same motor with a carby.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

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    Monica,
    The 505 SLI [I have an automatic SLI wagon] are not liked by some of the Peugeot adherents, having the idea that SLI's are prone to faults & can stop altogether at the most inconvenient times! To be fair, in my experience of the make, that is certainly not restricted to SLI's.
    I think the SLI is the most developed version the factory put together using the Peugeot XN [505/05] OHV 4 cylinder engine. When it is tuned, and everything is functioning as it should, then it is very satisfactory to drive & quite reliable.
    The 2 litre XN6 engine has as its fuel system a K-Jetronic Bosch continuous enjection system fitted with lambda loop [using oxygen sensor]control. The Haynes 505 manual does not cover this application with the OHV XN6 engine - it only briefly mentions the 505 STI K-Jetronic set up.
    To be honest, over a period of time I got much info about the injection system from the internet, as I was rebuilding the engine [previous owner had run it into the ground with no maintenance].
    Are you saying that it has a noticeable engine miss at idle? Is the miss present throughout the rev range? Try to locate the the miss to a particular cylinder - loosen each HT lead from its respective plug a little & then start the engine. Pull the lead out & see if the revs drop - you'll hear the difference. If there is no drop of revs in, say, one particular cylinder, then it is likely that ignition or some other attribute of that cylinder is the cause of the miss.
    In mine, the third cylinder had the problem. It was not the HT lead or plug, but in fact turned out to be very tight valve clearances. With these reset, the miss disappeared. Of course, if cylinder compression is down, that also can be a cause.
    With regard to having to wiggle connectors, I am not surprised because I have come to the conclusion that Peugeot used some really shit connectors during the '80's!
    I would be very willing to help you further with the car.
    Regards,
    John505

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monica505SLi
    I've recently purchased (after cajoling from my former 504-owning boyfriend) a 505 SLi Series II manual.

    He's at a bit of a loss. Having bought a manual for it, we can't work out WHAT fuel system is in it. It's not either of the ones in the manual. We took it to Alpine Motors, who called it a "Poverty Pack Peugeot" (thanks), and Continental, who said they'd not seen one like it for years, and knew nothing much about it.

    Later, we took it for a dynotune. They thought it had a water leak from the missing on startup. After a pressure test, they decided it must be a weeping injector, or possible fuel pressure problem. We took it away - not tuned. The next time we tried to start it, nothing! Had spark, so we wiggled a lot of connectors etc, and it started!

    What could it be? And where can we get info on this thing? It really needs a tune, but we don't want to do that unless we can determine the cause of the startup miss.
    Monica - First welcome to the forum
    Is it a station wagon or sedan & what year?

    You have come to the right place to get information on your new car. Most every problem has been sorted out. Disregard the 'poverty pack' comment as the fuel injection system on the SLIs is exactly the same as used in Mercedes Porsche Ferarri and Rolls Royce! The Technical name is KJetronic (with Lamda).

    There are a few electronic sensors and relays in the system that measure things like engine temperature and feed that data back to automatically adjust the injection system when your driving. When your BF fiddled under the bonnet and got the car to start he probably reconnected a loose connection or a dodgy relay; so I dont think you have a major problem.

    So give us some more information and we can better direct you.
    Being in the ACT there is a slight possibility you have something unusual - but even so I am sure you will be able to to get a recomendation for a good local KJetronic tuner.
    So many projects - so little time.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monica505SLi
    We took it to Alpine Motors, who called it a "Poverty Pack Peugeot" (thanks), and Continental, who said they'd not seen one like it for years, and knew nothing much about it.
    Apologies Monica, I read Alpine Motors as Alpine Affair in Box Hill Melbourne, without even noticing that you are in the ACT!!!
    Les hurlements de lion.
    504 GL (gone)
    205 GTI Classic (gone)
    505 STI (gone)
    I can feel a GTI 180 coming on!

  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    Default 505 SLi Fuel injection

    Hello (it's Mon's other half here!).

    It's a 1986 505 SLi. Alpine said something about maybe it came from South Africa?

    The miss is only when starting, and then clears and the car runs fine, although rich. The miss is there for about 10-15 seconds before it runs smoothly.

    I'm 99.99% certain that it's not the Kjetronic - all the manifolds look wrong, it's an oil bath filter on the passenger side. Some of it does look a little K-jet, but a lot (ie most!) of it doesn't.

    Apparently it's a 2.2L engine. Does that help? I guess the first thing to do is identify what the hell it is, but with 2 Pug repairers saying thay'd only ever seen a couple like it, maybe we do have something strange here?

    Cheers for the reponses chaps!

    Craig

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monica505SLi
    Hello (it's Mon's other half here!).

    It's a 1986 505 SLi. Alpine said something about maybe it came from South Africa?

    The miss is only when starting, and then clears and the car runs fine, although rich. The miss is there for about 10-15 seconds before it runs smoothly.

    I'm 99.99% certain that it's not the Kjetronic - all the manifolds look wrong, it's an oil bath filter on the passenger side. Some of it does look a little K-jet, but a lot (ie most!) of it doesn't.

    Apparently it's a 2.2L engine. Does that help? I guess the first thing to do is identify what the hell it is, but with 2 Pug repairers saying thay'd only ever seen a couple like it, maybe we do have something strange here?

    Cheers for the reponses chaps!

    Craig
    Well Craig - you & M. might just have an orphan . But is it a sedan or wagon?
    The 2.2 Lt engines are usually overhead cam (OHC) with a rubber belt at the front half hidden by a tin cover. Can you look in the rocker cover and see the valves & camshaft after taking off the oil filler cap? If yes its an OHC

    Or does the main part of the engine look like your 504 engine with spark plug leads going to the rocker cover & oil filler on the side?

    The injection system looks quite different on both - but it is basically the same KJetronic.

    Assuming it is KJetronic it is probably the cold start injector (choke) pumping too much fuel in until it warms up, so it may be a sensor playing up.

    Do you have a digital camera?
    So many projects - so little time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monica505SLi
    Hello (it's Mon's other half here!).

    It's a 1986 505 SLi. Alpine said something about maybe it came from South Africa?

    The miss is only when starting, and then clears and the car runs fine, although rich. The miss is there for about 10-15 seconds before it runs smoothly.

    I'm 99.99% certain that it's not the Kjetronic - all the manifolds look wrong, it's an oil bath filter on the passenger side. Some of it does look a little K-jet, but a lot (ie most!) of it doesn't.

    Apparently it's a 2.2L engine. Does that help? I guess the first thing to do is identify what the hell it is, but with 2 Pug repairers saying thay'd only ever seen a couple like it, maybe we do have something strange here?

    Cheers for the reponses chaps!

    Craig
    Hey, I got one that sounds just like it. Mine is an early STi (1980) that I bought as a donor car for my 504 rally. It has the oil pot on the passenger side, and it has the 2.2 liter ZDJK engine with the K jetronic. It originally had the 2 liter ZEJ but it was later replaced. It came with a cable clutch BA7/5 and a 3.46 LSD. Idles roughly when first started, then runs great. I think the rough idle may be the electrovalve flooding it because it is much worse during a warm re-start. Anyway, I am sure that if you post a photo of the engine bay it will take the forum members a New York minute to figure out what it is. You may also want to post the VIN number as it contains a code of the body and original engine type. For example the first three numbers 551 indicate it is a 505, then the engine type, then the production number. It is like playing "clue".
    BTW, get rid of that silly oil pot. I ran mine with an open intake once and it was flying, the oil pot was choking it. I put a very basic mushroom sponge filter where the oil pot normally attached and it runs much, much better.

    Thanos
    Last edited by Thanos; 5th October 2005 at 12:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monica505SLi
    Hello (it's Mon's other half here!).

    It's a 1986 505 SLi. Alpine said something about maybe it came from South Africa?

    The miss is only when starting, and then clears and the car runs fine, although rich. The miss is there for about 10-15 seconds before it runs smoothly.

    I'm 99.99% certain that it's not the Kjetronic - all the manifolds look wrong, it's an oil bath filter on the passenger side. Some of it does look a little K-jet, but a lot (ie most!) of it doesn't.

    Apparently it's a 2.2L engine. Does that help? I guess the first thing to do is identify what the hell it is, but with 2 Pug repairers saying thay'd only ever seen a couple like it, maybe we do have something strange here?

    Cheers for the reponses chaps!

    Craig

    Sounds like the K Jetronic push rod engine to me, this has an oil bath air cleaner as part of the AFM/ fuel distibutor unit. So nothing special, just the normal SLi Australian delivered engine.
    In New Caledonia the oil bath air cleaners give twice the engine life of the others and their cars had oil bath cleaners long after we went to foam.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    In New Caledonia the oil bath air cleaners give twice the engine life of the others and their cars had oil bath cleaners long after we went to foam.
    Graham
    Oops, I may have to put the oil bath filter back on mine, then. I have also replaced it on my Ti engine with a K&N intake. Graham, why did it prolong engine life so significantly? Also, do you anticipate that it would be the same way in Greece?

    Thanos

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    Vastly improved particulate filtration?

    ed ge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Oops, I may have to put the oil bath filter back on mine, then. I have also replaced it on my Ti engine with a K&N intake. Graham, why did it prolong engine life so significantly? Also, do you anticipate that it would be the same way in Greece?

    Thanos
    A lot of dusty roads in New Caledonia, although probably something to do with lack of maintenance as well! As long as you change/ clean the filters regularly you should be OK.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monica505SLi
    (after cajoling from my former 504-owning boyfriend)
    Hello (it's Mon's other half here!).

    ????????????????????

    was that former 504 owning
    or.............".......boy friend

    ed ge
    Last edited by edgedweller; 5th October 2005 at 02:32 PM.

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    Craig,
    I would agree with Graham Wallis that the car is the australian delivered SLi fitted with 2 litre OHV XN6 and K-Jetronic fuel injection. The inlet manifold sweeps from each inlet port upwards to join as a central air box to which is fitted the throttle body, and then, via a inverted bell shaped rubber duct, connects to the combined fuel distributor/air mass cone - which is oval shaped & lies over the oil bath filter on the passenger side inner mudguard.
    If the motor is running rich throughout the rev range, then it is likely going to cough & splutter a little on cold start up, as for the first few seconds, the cold start injector spays a large mist of fuel into the intake chamber. I doubt that the cold start injector, or the cold start thermal switch [situated below the themostat in the water pump assembly] are at fault - more likely the warm up regulator may be malfunctioning, or it may be that the oxygen sensor is inoperative, or someone has altered the idle [base] mixture control in the past. This control is situated on the fuel distributor, between the fuel delivery head and the air mass flow cone. It can be accessed using a 3mm long Allen key, and small degrees of turning can have large alterations in the idle CO. If you do decide to try retuning it, disconnect the oxygen sensor, and turn the recessed idle mix screw 10 to 20 degrees anti-clockwise [leans it], and then start & run the engine, to see what change there is.
    Good luck,
    John505

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    Hi,

    Try contacting Bill MacNamee from the Peugeot Association of Canberra - There's a website (search Google for it). He knows these cars very well and may be able to help out with a fuel injection issue.

    Cheers,
    James

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    Quote Originally Posted by James S
    Hi,

    Try contacting Bill MacNamee from the Peugeot Association of Canberra - There's a website (search Google for it). He knows these cars very well and may be able to help out with a fuel injection issue.

    Cheers,
    James
    Bills web site.
    http://www.pcug.org.au/~mcnamee/index.html
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
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  20. #20
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    From what I have come across starting on 2 or 3 cylinders is quite a common problem on sti's and probably sli's. When you go to start the car next try turning the key momentarily to start just enough to engage the starter motor, turn the key off then do it again, this will cause the fuel pump to activate twice, then try to start the car, if it starts and runs smoothly, you have a problem with the system loosing fuel pressure, either through a leaking accumulator, or fuel pressure regulator, the reason its worse when hot is because at cold start there is an extra injector feeding fuel into the system.
    If this remedies the problem , it is probably easier to follow this procedure when starting than it is to fix the problem, unless it starts to leak fuel out of the system, then steps should be taken. If it still starts the same you obviously have a problem elsewhere.
    Regards Pete

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    Tadpole
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    It's Craig again (the former-504-owning other half!)
    Thanks for your efforts and thoughts guys.

    I'll take some pics of the engine bay and post them up for you. Hopefully get that done tomorrow night.

    We just came back from Bateman's Bay, and the Pug went flawlessly.
    I'm still having trouble convincing Mon that Pug's are excellent. Can anyone explain how you can take one Monica butt out of a '96 Daewoe, and plonk it in a 505, and the owner of the butt can't tell the difference!?! And she thinks it uses too much fuel.

    Oh, an update. We took it for a dyno tune. They started it, it missed again, and they immediately rang Mon to tell her the head was letting water in (which was the reason the Daewoe got dumped!). This set her into a flat panic. They then pressure tested and decided that it was excessive fuel pressure or a leaking injector. They're Bosch agents, and then said they had no idea how much it would cost or when they could fix it, but they wanted the car for a few more days. We said no, thanks. And took it to the coast the next day. Although, no charge from them.

    Pics to come - stay tuned!

    Craig

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monica505SLi
    It's Craig again (the former-504-owning other half!)
    Thanks for your efforts and thoughts guys.

    I'll take some pics of the engine bay and post them up for you. Hopefully get that done tomorrow night.

    We just came back from Bateman's Bay, and the Pug went flawlessly.
    I'm still having trouble convincing Mon that Pug's are excellent. Can anyone explain how you can take one Monica butt out of a '96 Daewoe, and plonk it in a 505, and the owner of the butt can't tell the difference!?! And she thinks it uses too much fuel.

    Oh, an update. We took it for a dyno tune. They started it, it missed again, and they immediately rang Mon to tell her the head was letting water in (which was the reason the Daewoe got dumped!). This set her into a flat panic. They then pressure tested and decided that it was excessive fuel pressure or a leaking injector. They're Bosch agents, and then said they had no idea how much it would cost or when they could fix it, but they wanted the car for a few more days. We said no, thanks. And took it to the coast the next day. Although, no charge from them.

    Pics to come - stay tuned!

    Craig
    Ahhh - the old "head was letting water in" excuse; gawd I hear it so many times. Its code for "i dunno" .

    If you suspect this is the case (or just want re-assurance) take the car to a radiator repair place, a specialist workshop, and ask them to pressure test the cooling system. They will have a special pressure pump and it will find any water leaks external & internal (inside motor). Its the sort of thing they do all the time and it should be a nominal price only.

    If the car is using too much petrol, it could be related to the problem you first mentioned, but it could be another simple fix. On my Mercedes (which, I expect, has the same injection system as yours) high fuel consumption is a sign that the injectors need cleaning as they are not closing properly.

    Once again its important that you find the right specialist in your town. Perhaps ask at an older Volvo place for the name of their KJectronic guru.

    And dont be conned - cleaning shouldnt cost much as new injectors are selling on eBay for about +$30 (starting price) - item 4579854761 so 30 x 4 = ~ $120

    So many projects - so little time.

  23. #23
    Tadpole
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    Default Photos of engine bay (and Monica)

    Note the strange fuel injection system!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 505SLi Fuel Injection System?-pugeb1.jpg   505SLi Fuel Injection System?-pugeb3.jpg   505SLi Fuel Injection System?-pugeb6.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monica505SLi
    Note the strange fuel injection system!
    Sure looks like KJetronic to me.
    I am not a Wagon person so I dunno if its the same as them.

    Volvo 264s had the same (nearly) so get the name of an 'expert' from a Volvo workshop. I am sure there would be a Fuel Injection place in ACT that could troubleshoot this. A large number of imported cars had these BOSCH systems & most parts are interchangable. SAAB Volvo Mercedes Porsche to name a few.
    So many projects - so little time.

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    It may look strange but basically it is the same as the sti system. So if you follow the service settings as for the sti you will be right. I can tell you this from experience. The same as you are having now.
    Try using premium unleaded, you will use less fuel and it will run better as well as keeping the injetors clean. As a side benefit you will have more power as well.
    The start problem could be the accumulator which loses pressure after a while and it takes a while for the pressure to build up again so it will run properly. This will only show up after the car has been running above or at operating temp' , turned off and then restrarted while still hot. When the car is cold the cold start injector will work independently of the other injectors and its pressure is boosted by a small pump on the side of the metering head unit. This is in turn activated by a temp' switch. and only comes on when you turn the starter, but will remain on until warmed up.
    I would suggest it is the accumulator, but they are bloody dear so check it out thoroughly first.

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