Peugeot 505 Series II Cam Shaft Seal
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  1. #1
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    Default Peugeot 505 Series II Cam Shaft Seal

    Anyone here know the dimensions for the front cam shaft seal on a 2.2 litre ZDJL engine from a series II 505? I ask because I'm in the middle of doing a head gasket and when everything was bolted back together the new seal leaked like a sieve. Now the seal came in what was supposedly a gasket kit for the ZEJL engine but the supplier claimed this was the appropriate one for my engine???? Any idea if the seals are diferent between the two engines? I don't have the original seal to compare as it didn't return when the head went for machining. My brother-in-law mechanic suggested we substitute a double lip seal if we can get one in the right dimensions. He was very surprised it was a single lip seal.
    Philip

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    Quote Originally Posted by R12 Fan
    Anyone here know the dimensions for the front cam shaft seal on a 2.2 litre ZDJL engine from a series II 505? I ask because I'm in the middle of doing a head gasket and when everything was bolted back together the new seal leaked like a sieve. Now the seal came in what was supposedly a gasket kit for the ZEJL engine but the supplier claimed this was the appropriate one for my engine???? Any idea if the seals are diferent between the two engines? I don't have the original seal to compare as it didn't return when the head went for machining. My brother-in-law mechanic suggested we substitute a double lip seal if we can get one in the right dimensions. He was very surprised it was a single lip seal.
    Philip
    No such thing as ZEJL. The ZEJ (2 litre) has K Jetronic injection. The seal shouldb't be any different to 2.2 litre motors though.
    Graham

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    I stand corrected. It was a ZEJ gasket kit. What is major difference between these motors? Is the extra capacity from an increased stroke not the bore?
    Philip
    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    No such thing as ZEJL. The ZEJ (2 litre) has K Jetronic injection. The seal shouldb't be any different to 2.2 litre motors though.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by R12 Fan
    I stand corrected. It was a ZEJ gasket kit. What is major difference between these motors? Is the extra capacity from an increased stroke not the bore?
    Philip
    Yes, increased stroke but I'm pretty sure the heads are the same.
    Graham

  5. #5
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    Default Cam shaft seal

    Hi Philip

    The size seal you want is 35/47/7 In older engines these are prone to leak fairly frequently, I have found two things which solve this problem, one is to fit a "ready sleeve" ( avail. from repco or similar) to the camshaft and the other is to fit two seals.


    Hope this helps

    Neil

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    Thanks heaps. I hadn't thought to use two seals but that might do the trick.
    Philip

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Boyle
    Hi Philip

    The size seal you want is 35/47/7 In older engines these are prone to leak fairly frequently, I have found two things which solve this problem, one is to fit a "ready sleeve" ( avail. from repco or similar) to the camshaft and the other is to fit two seals.


    Hope this helps

    Neil

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    Icon5 How easy is it to get an old seal out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Boyle
    Hi Philip

    The size seal you want is 35/47/7 In older engines these are prone to leak fairly frequently, I have found two things which solve this problem, one is to fit a "ready sleeve" ( avail. from repco or similar) to the camshaft and the other is to fit two seals.
    Neil
    Hi Neil
    1/ Do 2 new seals fit in OK? Or do you have to buy 'skinnier' ones than the original?

    2/ Also, is it easy to get an old seal out when you are just replacing a timing belt (& not otherwise removing the camshaft/head)? Is there a trick to getting at the old one?

    3/ Next question does anyone know the size of seal for the ZD timing/distributor cog??
    So many projects - so little time.

  8. #8
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    Default Camshaft seals

    Hi Philip
    Yes two standard seals will just fit but if you could get say 5 or 6mm wide ones it would be better, that's what I plan to do next time. as for removing seals I have not had any problem, they are normally replaced when you replace a cam belt. I use some old dentists picks that I was given but you can actually buy a proper tool.

    Regards
    Neil

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    Quote Originally Posted by R12 Fan
    Anyone here know the dimensions for the front cam shaft seal on a 2.2 litre ZDJL engine from a series II 505? I ask because I'm in the middle of doing a head gasket and when everything was bolted back together the new seal leaked like a sieve. Now the seal came in what was supposedly a gasket kit for the ZEJL engine but the supplier claimed this was the appropriate one for my engine???? Any idea if the seals are diferent between the two engines? I don't have the original seal to compare as it didn't return when the head went for machining. My brother-in-law mechanic suggested we substitute a double lip seal if we can get one in the right dimensions. He was very surprised it was a single lip seal.
    Philip

    I recently replaced all 3 seals on my engine with the genuine Peugeot seals (January '05). However in the process I managed to damage one of the seals. I sourced a replacement from a bearing/seal provider and was asked did I want a high temp seal or standard temp range one. I asked for the high temp seal. Apparently you can tell the difference from the colour - the high temp one is black! (from memory) Before I could ask about all this the guy said that standard seals go hard and don't work. The high temp ones stay flexible and last longer. Well the ones I pulled out were as hard as rock. They had done 8 years but have been leaking quite a lot for about 12 months. So 2 genuine Peugeot seals are in there and a replacement for the one I damaged and I have had no leaks at all.

    Good Luck!

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    Neil,
    Do you happen to know the dimensions of the intermediate shaft seal? I may try the two seal trick with this as well.
    Philip

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    Quote Originally Posted by rprince3op2
    I recently replaced all 3 seals on my engine with the genuine Peugeot seals (January '05). However in the process I managed to damage one of the seals. I sourced a replacement from a bearing/seal provider and was asked did I want a high temp seal or standard temp range one. I asked for the high temp seal. Apparently you can tell the difference from the colour - the high temp one is black! (from memory) Before I could ask about all this the guy said that standard seals go hard and don't work. The high temp ones stay flexible and last longer. Well the ones I pulled out were as hard as rock. They had done 8 years but have been leaking quite a lot for about 12 months. So 2 genuine Peugeot seals are in there and a replacement for the one I damaged and I have had no leaks at all.

    Good Luck!
    I'm presuming you replaced these seals when you were only changing a belt (rather than a full engine/head rebuild) - & noting that one was damaged on installation; do you have any tips or tricks to pass on?
    I am interested as I am just about to do this on an STI motor - perhaps tomorrow - if its not too cold in Melbourne!!
    So many projects - so little time.

  12. #12
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    For the trouble, a viton double lip seal is well worth the extra $$. High temp seals are red if silicone, dark red if Viton.
    For some reason the PRV engines (and possibly other douvrin engines) used single lip seals, apparently they can be readily swapped with no problems.
    If the shaft has a wear groove, you can either sleeve it with a speedisleeve kit, or installe a slightly narrower seal so that the lips are running on an unworn section of the shaft.

    Farmerdave

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    Quote Originally Posted by 604 tragic
    I'm presuming you replaced these seals when you were only changing a belt (rather than a full engine/head rebuild) - & noting that one was damaged on installation; do you have any tips or tricks to pass on?
    I am interested as I am just about to do this on an STI motor - perhaps tomorrow - if its not too cold in Melbourne!!

    Correct - When I got the car in '98 I had the belt and seals done then.
    Since late '03 there had been some oil leakage but there was considerable leakage on a country trip (January '05) from the crankshaft seal so I decided they needed doing. The belt was well past its use by date 'cos it was covered with oil. I now know that it would have been wise to do the job as soon as I first noticed the leak.

    Doing the job was tedious and annoying mainly because I didn't realise that I damaged the timing gear shaft seal until I had the whole thing back together and got it started. The damage I did was just poor workmanship at the time. It was the timing shaft seal which is mounted in a small housing. Well I was too eager and pushed the housing in place over the end of the saft and didnt check to see the seal was seated correctly. So I had to pull it all apart again and get a replacement seal and then put it all back together again.

    Initially I tried not to remove too many parts but as I went on I found it easier to take the air cleaner, alternator, etc off which gave me a lot more room to move. The thermostat housing has to come off - take care with the gasket as my old gasket, which I reused was uneven and the housing cracked very easily. I got a second hand housing and a new gasket which solved that problem.
    I also replaced the tensioner pulley. The old one was possibly the original and therefore had done 350,000Ks. Also before tightening the pully in place, I turned the engine clockwise 2 turns by hand using the crankshaft bolt. When I finally tightened the pulley I applied very light pressure to the camshaft in an anti-clockwise direction while tightening the pulley.

    I used the Haynes manual - this indicated that there were 2 design cam shaft cog wheels and different markings on the belts - I spent some time carefully checking things to make sure I got it all back together with the correct timing.
    Mark the old belt before you take it off and compare it closely with the new belt you purchase.

    The best fun part was loosening the crankshaft bolt. But I have a secret system which makes it very easy. A Chain clamp round the front pulley. This holds very nicely and doesn't do any damage to anything.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...8&category=303

    I also took the opportunity to give the engine a good flush out and refill with new coolant as well as replace all V belts etc. I did an oil and filter change at the same time. New spark plugs (Bosch Super 4). New air filter element. New brushes and bearings for the alternator. etc.

    The whole job took a few days - taking into account the time I spent cleaning parts and the engine. I was pretty happy with the way it all tuned out.
    Last edited by rprince3op2; 11th August 2005 at 12:13 AM.

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    Default Cam Shaft seals

    Hi Philip
    The intershaft seal size is 30/40/7 and the crankshaft seal size is 50/68/10 in case you need it. I agree about getting high temp seals, especially for the camshaft. I probably would not worry about fitting two seals to the intershaft as they don't seem to give as much trouble and from memory I don't think there is room anyway. It is still probably woth chasing down double lipped seals as well. Obviously I meant speedy sleave not ready sleave in earlier post, sorry about that. Hope this all helps.


    Regards
    Neil

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    Default Seal Sizes

    Thanks Neil. This will make a huge difference as it was incredibly frustating to pull all the work apart again simply because the new single lip seal didn't work first time. I've ordered some new double lip high temp seals and I'll let you all know if it works well. Aussiefrogs saves the day again!
    Philip

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    Default All fixed

    I chucked the new seals in last night including a second on the cam shaft. Worked a treat. Hopefully can forget them for another ten years.
    Philip

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    Default Thanks everyone - but I need more advice

    Quote Originally Posted by rprince3op2
    Correct -

    Doing the job was tedious and annoying mainly because I didn't realise that I damaged the timing gear shaft seal until I had the whole thing back together and got it started. The damage I did was just poor workmanship at the time. It was the timing shaft seal which is mounted in a small housing. Well I was too eager and pushed the housing in place over the end of the saft and didnt check to see the seal was seated correctly. So I had to pull it all apart again and get a replacement seal and then put it all back together again.
    *******
    I also took the opportunity to give the engine a good flush out and refill with new coolant as well as replace all V belts etc. I did an oil and filter change at the same time. New spark plugs (Bosch Super 4). New air filter element. New brushes and bearings for the alternator. etc.

    The whole job took a few days - taking into account the time I spent cleaning parts and the engine. I was pretty happy with the way it all tuned out.
    Thanks everyone, the weather is still cold here in Melbourne but so far I have the timing cover off and 2 old oil seals out (camshaft & intermediate shaft). Looks like these were both leaking a bit.

    First question is, with the Intermediate 'timing' shaft, do I have to unbolt & take off the aluminium housing behind the cog to fit the new seal - or just push it over the shaft & into the housing? Comment especially for 'rprince3op2' - is this how you stuffed up the fitting of your first seal??

    Second question - Can you actually get at the Crankshaft seal without taking off the belt drive cog? I had a quick look, but it wasnt easy to see down there.

    Also thanks heaps rprince3op2 for the tip on the Chain Vice Grips - I have sent an eBay question to the vendor on cost of shipping to Australia. I didnt need them to undo the 3 belt pulley as I used the 'Starter Motor Trick' that I learned off AussieFrogs a while back. But I reckon I'm surely gunna need them to do the big bolt up!!

    I will also be drilling into the rocker cover to unblock the hidden bleed hole that gums up and causes these Douvrin engines to build up too much crankcase pressure , as this IMHO, is a prime reason why oil is forced out of these motors.
    So many projects - so little time.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 604 tragic
    Thanks . . .
    First question is, with the Intermediate 'timing' shaft, do I have to unbolt & take off the aluminium housing behind the cog to fit the new seal - or just push it over the shaft & into the housing? Comment especially for 'rprince3op2' - is this how you stuffed up the fitting of your first seal??

    Second question - Can you actually get at the Crankshaft seal without taking off the belt drive cog? I had a quick look, but it wasnt easy to see down there.

    Also thanks heaps rprince3op2 for the tip on the Chain Vice Grips - I have sent an eBay question to the vendor on cost of shipping to Australia. . . . motors.

    Question 1. - You guessed it. But it shouldn't cause you any problems. In fact it is probably easier to fit the seal in the housing before sliding it back over the shaft. Also it gives you a chance to see if the shaft has a groove in it. I usually clean the surface of shafts with a bit of "plastic" steel wool so the the new seal has a clean surface on which to mate. The reason I stuffed the seal was I didn't get a mirror and have a good look to see I had installed the seal over the shaft properly. Had I done that I would have seen the error immidiately. Also the seal fits right inside the housing - at first glance you might think that the seal fits flush with the surface of the housing but it didn't on my car - it needs to be pressed right in otherwise the cog wheel will rub on the back of the seal. So I would still take the housing off to do the job.

    Question 2. Yes - the crankshaft cog has to come off to get to the seal. Haynes Manual 762 Page 62 has some good pictures. Mine came away quite easily with an improvised puller (2 wide blade screwdrivers on opposite sides. Then there is a large washer behind the cog which comes off easily - then you can get at the seal! Watch out for the woodruff key which locks the cog on the crankshaft.

    Question 3. Someone somewhere must sell Chain Vice Grips. I actually bought 2 pairs in February '05 from SuperCheap in Bunbury (South of Perth). But, despite many requests in many stores I have found none since. The tool is actually classed as a welding clamp - you can "chain" together pipes for welding purposes etc.


    Lastly - I would recommend a decent sized mirror and a strong light - Then you can see down there and get a good look at what is going on.
    Good Luck
    Roland.

    505 GTI
    505 Estate
    405 Mi16

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    If you've got the time could you give me a bit more info on this. - (I will also be drilling into the rocker cover to unblock the hidden bleed hole that gums up and causes these Douvrin engines to build up too much crankcase pressure , as this IMHO, is a prime reason why oil is forced out of these motors.)
    I have a xantia & a 405 both with 8 valve douvrins. where is the mysterious bleed hole & how do I check if it's blocked?

    Regards
    Kellyo

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellyo
    If you've got the time could you give me a bit more info on this. - (I will also be drilling into the rocker cover to unblock the hidden bleed hole that gums up and causes these Douvrin engines to build up too much crankcase pressure , as this IMHO, is a prime reason why oil is forced out of these motors.)
    I have a xantia & a 405 both with 8 valve douvrins. where is the mysterious bleed hole & how do I check if it's blocked?

    Regards
    Kellyo
    Hi Kelly
    Sorry I took so long to get back to you. I will take a photo & send it to you as I may not be able to explain it too well. Firstly this is relevant to the ZD 505 rocker cover; other PSA models most probably have dfiferent/improved breathing arrangements. I expect that later Douvrin engines would have fixed the problem (but wouldnt be surprised if they didnt!!).

    As a bit of background - on our 505 STI the crankcase pressure build up was driving me crazy and I had extra hoses running everywhere. Based on my experience with 404/504/604s I felt something was blocking up somewhere.
    But when you look inside a ZD rocker cover there is a thick metal plate which covers up the 'breather' part and you cant see anything. In desperation, I cut one open & sure enough - inside there was a small bleed hole blocked; and there is no easy way to get to it. This effectively blocks the vacuum take-off hose to the inlet manifold, and I suppose this vacuum is required for crankcase ventilation.

    To explain where the bleed hole is (& how to get to it) - if you look at a ZD rocker cover there are 2 hoses attached. One is the small vacuum hose and the other is a fatter one going to the air cleaner. These hoses attach to a raised section of the rocker cover. This section is sort of like a small upturned cup (width of 50c piece) sitting on the cover with another smaller cup (width of 20c piece) sitting on to of the first. The only outlets are on the side of each 'cup' for the 2 hoses mentioned above.

    The bleed hole is in the middle of the base of the first 'cup' which is covered by the second cup. To get to it - I just drilled a hole precisely in the middle of the base of the top/second cup (a medium/small drill bit - so you can plug & seal it later with a self-tapper screw). This hole will be directly over the blocked bleed hole.

    Then get your smallest drill bit in your fingers and go in through the bigger hole and feel/poke around for the gummed up hole below and gradually free it up without enlarging it too much. I then pushed some skinny wire through both holes as far as it would go, just to losen up any crap that you cant see.

    Fill up the big hole with a screw and make sure the vacuum take off hose (and any othe hoses) are not blocked - and your done.
    So many projects - so little time.

  21. #21
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    Have been trawling through threads on the hunt for speedy sleeve sizing to suit ZEJ / J6R motors - can't seem to find any clear references or part numbers (cam, crank, oil pump driveshaft).

    Anyone feeling generous enough to share this information? Thanks, if you are.

  22. #22
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    With regard to this job I have two suggestions.
    1. To get the crankshaft bolt undone simply fit a socket with a solid , non-ratchet driver bar, which goes inside a bit of solid pipe to make it a bit longer. Sit the end over neatly on the passenger side, with socket engaged, and turn the starter over a couple of revolutions. Make sure to take out the high tension cable from the dizzy so it doesn't start. This is the way to undo that bolt on any car,I was told by a mechanic I know and as long as you are careful it is easy and works every time.
    2. Second, when fitting seals, it is essential to 'butter' up the surface that will run on the shaft with some grease before fitting or you will often score the seal before lubrication gets to it.

    One more thing is to loosen the bolts on intermediate shafts while cam belt is still in place.
    Refitting crank bolt, put car in 4th gear, wedge a bit of wood onto the brake pedal, apply loctite to the thread of bolt and do it up tight with the extension tube on your driver.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Have been trawling through threads on the hunt for speedy sleeve sizing to suit ZEJ / J6R motors - can't seem to find any clear references or part numbers (cam, crank, oil pump driveshaft).

    Anyone feeling generous enough to share this information? Thanks, if you are.
    Drop in and measure it if you want.
    I had all that info in my blueprint book, which i lost at bunnings after writing a shoping list in it.

    Dont know if the pug crank is any different to the renault crank, but the flywheel end of the crank is thinner than any sleeve, so if you want to do that job it requires carefully cutting down the sleeve a few mm.
    Its a fiddly job cutting a sleeve down to size and then carefully working the edge round again, without distorting the bugger or snapping it off.

    Jo

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