savage review of 607
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    savage review of 607

    There is a pretty savage review of the Peugeot 607 in today's "Age" newspaper "Drive" section (I suspect its in the SMH too).

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    Jonathon Hawley, who is normally pretty Peugeot friendly, pans the ride, cabin space and handling quite heavily. Unusual areas of criticism for a Peugeot!

    Anyone had a drive of one? (At $80,000 its going to be a while until I can afford a second hand one - might get one for my 95th birthday - but it would still be nice to know what they are like.

    [ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</p>
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  2. #2
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    In my opinion, this is the big problem with the 607:

    -it's built on the same floor pan as the 406
    -thus it has no more internal cabin space than the 406
    -it has greater overhangs than the 406
    -it costs alot more than a 406
    -it is basically a 406 with a heavier body
    -it doesn't handle as well as a 406
    -why buy a 607 when you can buy a 406 which is cheaper, lighter, has just as much cabin space, handles better, looks better and has just as much quality?

    If the 607 had a longer wheelbase than the 406 then there might be some point to it, but since it doesn't then why did Peugeot even bother? Who wants to fork out tens of thousands more for a repackaged (and inferior) version of the same car?

    Dave
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  3. #3
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    For real?

    It's built on the 406 platform, I thought it was similar in platform to the Citroen C5. In the flesh it looks a SHITLOAD bigger than the 406 IMO. Why would they build it on the 406 platform when the 406 is nearing replacement soon anyway.

    (I don't actually know what platform it's based on, just my interpretation).

  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Dave... that puts it in the same class as a Dolomite Sprint...

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    I'd assumed the 607 would have the same floor pan as the C6. However they usualy build the 'Cit' then the 'Pug. ie: Not long after the C6 is released they'll release the 607 on the C6's floorpan (well it was never designed to be the C6's platform, it was always designed to be for both cars, they just always seem to release the 'Cit' 1st.). Maybe they always release the cit 1st so they can iron out the bugs with it & blame problems on the 'complex' suspension ???

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  6. #6
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    CAR magazine describes the ride as 'jittery'...

    Ray, yep the RWD Triumph 1300 was a MUCH better car

    Stuey

    [ 14 December 2001: Message edited by: Stuey ]</p>


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Maybe the information I had about the 607 and 406 sharing the same platform or wheelbase wasn't correct. I don't know. Having looked at both cars, there seems to be precious little cabin space difference. Most of the difference in size seems to be in the big overhangs on the 607. The 406 seems to be a far better car in almost all respects. Almost all road tests seem to confirm this opinion. It's a bit like the 505 and 604. The 505 has just as much usuable space in many respects as the 604 (except for perhaps rear legroom) and is a lighter and better handling car.

    The 406 is a very good car and probably the best built Peugeot for many years (if not ever). It is hard to find anyone who's owned a 406 who has a really bad word to say about them. The 607 seems to be another matter entirely.

    Dave
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  8. #8
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    Dave,

    I would have to agree that everything came together with the 406 (And it might well be the best car peugeot have built)
    It left cars like the audi a4,saab 900s,volvo s40
    in it's wake in all areas when it was pitted against them.
    And the car tested in wheels only had the 4 pot it would have done even more damage with the v6 as the only area it fell slightly down is in the performance (But even that was only marginal)
    Even the 406 coupes r under 50 grand (I personally believe that they were to much at 76+ grand)
    But they r a pretty car if only they had a bit more go.
    My two cents worth

    Murat

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Yeah definately the 406 is one of the best Peugeots, the 405 was great as well, was the defining 2litre car for a while. Then again the 306 was a great Peugeot as well. Apart from some exeptions it seems every peugeot has done well in it's class. 605, 505, 305, are some low points, good cars, but as Peugeots go they aren't highlights IMO.

  10. #10
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Actually the 505 was much more succesful than the 405 in many markets, so it definitely wasn't a low point. Many people rate the 505 well above the 405 and the 306, and it set the 2 litre standard when it was released in 1979. A good 505 is a hard car to fault. It's a pity that some of the interior parts weren't more durable.

    By numbers the most successful Peugeots are:

    1st 205 5 million+

    2nd 504 3.7 million

    3rd 306 (very close behind the 504, although this position may have changed in the past 12 months)

    followed closely by the 404, 505 and 405 (although I'm not sure of the order)

    By production runs the most successful Peugeots are:

    1st 504 1968-present

    2nd 404 1960-1989

    3rd 505 1979-1999

    4th 205 1982-present

    Major motoring awards:

    -504 European car of the year 1969

    -405 European car of the year 1987

    -307 European car of the year 2001


    Dave
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  11. #11
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    Louis,

    The point i was personally was trying to get across with my comment on the 406 being the best car peugeot have produced is,
    In the category of what we might call a standard sedan it has all the good goods and compares with the best of them at a price.
    I would still rather buy a lexus or a bmw or merc if was in the market for that sort of car but the peugeot is the quality car at a price.
    I was not comparing the 406 with a 205 or 306 or any other peugeot as it would be to difficult as a general car i suppose it is a refined 405
    The 405 did not have much wrong with it and the time it was produced had everybody talking about it.
    In my world the more luxuries they shove into cars the more they take away that pure driving pleasure (That can only come with basic cars)
    I think it will only get more complicated as the years roll on .

    murat

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    There are so many different things to factor in when you are choosing between these different cars. It doesn't make sense to me to compare a 205 or 306 with a 505 or a 406, because they suit such different needs.

    My own experiences are limited to the comparable "mid sized" large Peugeots, of earlier days (403, 404, 404 wagon, 504, 504 wagon, 505 wagon).

    I've always had a soft spot for 403's. They really were an amazingly robust design and would keep going under circumstances that would have killed most vehicles of their day. I once drove one from Darwin to Melbourne, via Perth, with a hole in the top of a piston! A cousin of mine's was still driveable after a total crankshaft fracture. Compared to other comparably priced offerings of the day (late 1950's and early 60's holdens and falcons for example, they offered outsanding handling, steering braking, economy and comfort)

    The 404 was out of the same mould in many ways, but wasn't quite as tough. Things like the upper part of the door frame falling off in rough going were a bit annoying! Even better handling, brakes, suspension and comfort though and a little bit more oomph.

    Then the 504, which really is one of the legendary cars in my book (apart from the awful slow , heavy steering). As tough as the 403, more comfortable than the 404 and the TI would leave a standard Holden V8 of the day in its wake, and then stop in half the time. Still remember reading a comparison of a Peugeot 504 carby version with the then current Jag, BMW, Rover, Triumph, Merc, Saab, Volvo etc back in the very early 70's. The Pug came last in the power stakes, but still came first in a "point to point" road test because of the superior handling etc. On the track only the BMW made it through a multiple chicane test faster. The limiting factor for all of the other vehicles was loss of control. For the Peugeot it was simply that engine lacked the legs to outpace the beemer. It still left the English and swedish vehicles far behind.

    The 505's have some of the vices of the 404 (more fragile than their predescessor) and, of course, the regular improvements in creature comforts). Never liked the looks of the 404 as much as the 403, or the 505 as much as the 504, I must say, at least in sedan mode.

    The trouble with 505's (especially the wagons -see below) was that they cost far too much new compraed to the opposition. A 403 or 404, or early 504 cost about the same as a reasonably specced Holden - a 505 wagon was twice the price!

    But I've really always been in love with the wagons. They have always seemed tougher than the sedans (at least from the 404 on) and offer a compromise between load carrying ability, comfort, handling and reliability etc that I personally find just about irresistable. While I have doubts about some of the "improvements" in the sedans, the wagons just seemed to get better and better . The 405 put a stop to this (too small, and too fragile, especially the early ones), but the 406 looks more like a continuation of the "old" lineage.

    I'm usually about ten years behind the "current release" (actually 15 years behind with my current SLi!) but I reckon I might be tempted earlier by a 406 wagon!

    Cheers

    Rod
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  13. #13
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    Rod,

    I'm sure that on a real road, given equal drivers, the Peugeot would have gone away from the 5 series. Those era of BMW's (of which I've owned 3) were great on roads you knew, where you could press on with abandon. But they were diabolical in situations where you might need to ease off mid corner. I was caught a few times in the country where I didn't have the faith in the car to push that little bit harder, especially on dampish corners.

    The chicane test is a bit pointless...

    Cheers

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  14. #14
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    [quote]Originally posted by Rod Hagen:
    <strong>
    Then the 504, which really is one of the legendary cars in my book (apart from the awful slow , heavy steering). </strong><hr></blockquote>

    Rod,

    I have to agree about the 504 steering being quite slow, but it's normally lighter than 404s, 203s etc, when the rack and ball joints are full of good quality grease. The trouble is many 504s don't have a grease nipple on the rack and the thrust bearings in the struts can get quite dry. The result is many 504s end up with heavy steering due to alot of extra friction in the system. Also the tyre tread pattern seems to make quite a difference to steering effort. My latest 195 Michelin Certis' feel alot lighter than my previous 195 MXF's, much more like 175 XZX's.

    I've just been through the process of fixing these things on my 504 (rack full of slick 50 grease, etc) and the steering is now quite light, even though I have a 14" sports steering wheel. The smaller wheel quickens the steering up quite nicely too. I think however if I had the 3.5 turns lock to lock rack from a 505 or 604 it would be better to use the standard 16" wheel (unless I fitted the power assistance as well).

    Dave
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    yes, I must say I've always been a bit wary of the wisdom of removing grease nipples from the steering rack (and maybe even the kingpins/ struts / ball joints etc etc). Its probably a good thing when the cars are "new" (less chance of introducing contamination etc etc - but after 200,000 k or more its a different story).

    But the other area where the 404 and 403 excelled was their balance. The 504 is still exceptionally good in this area, but I don't think I've ever driven a production sedan which had quite the same balance as the 403 &4 sedans. They are both cars that truly know how to dance!

    Tyres certainly do make a difference on all of these Peugeots. Fitting oversize tyres on the 40's really destroys the experience in my book. Sure 165 x15's were slender and tall by today's standards, but you always felt that the car was built around them, rather than the tyres being an optional accessory. On standard tyres (preferably XAS Michelins, but even with X or ZX) there was a controlled lightness about them both that was hard to beat. Even a brand new 504 was disappointing by comparison here I seem to remember (much as I love them). There is nothing like flipping a 404 around on a rough dirt road with the car in a continual state of uncertainty. As I said before, they know how to dance.

    [ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</p>
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    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    [quote]Originally posted by Rod Hagen:
    <strong>I don't think I've ever driven a production sedan which had quite the same balance as the 403 &4 sedans. They are both cars that truly know how to dance!

    Tyres certainly do make a difference on all of these Peugeots. Fitting oversize tyres on the 40's really destroys the experience in my book[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


    Rod,

    Yes 404s really do know how to dance! I've never driven another car that you can throw around on the limit and still feel in such total control. The ability to control 4 wheel drifts in them is incredible!, especially on the standard 165mm tyres. You can feel exactly when the tyres are about to let go at all times. I fitted 195/60 tyres to my 404 at one stage which made it a very flat and fast cornering machine, but as you said the 404 just didn't have the same finesse when fitted with wide tyres.

    In standard form the IRS Pugs don't feel as "chuckable" as the solid axle cars, but I've found that stiffer swaybars and in particular stiffer rear springs make a huge improvement to the IRS Pugs. The IRS cars are also alot better at launching from a wet intersection without getting any wheel spin. But for pure ability to drive constantly on the limit of tyre adhesion (and beyond) without ending up as part of the scenery, the 40's are best.

    Dave
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  17. #17
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    I saw a very nice 607 in Potts Point in sydney last night and this very elegant old lady got into it.
    She ieven had a chauffeur to open the rear doors.(very over the top).
    Beautiful car however, looked stunning. head_ban 2_cents

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    davemcbean:

    The 406 is a very good car and probably the best built Peugeot for many years (if not ever). It is hard to find anyone who's owned a 406 who has a really bad word to say about them. The 607 seems to be another matter entirely.

    Dave
    Interesting how posts from the past come back to haunt us all!

    When Dave wrote the above I hadn't driven a 406. Now, as the owner of one, I can endorse every word of it. Despite the fwd its the nearest in "feel" to the 403 and 404 that I've yet come across, though it still doesn't have quite the "dancing" ability of the 404. Corners faster and flatter though, and the ride, creature comforts and quiteness are a joy.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger!
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    It must be a 604/5/7 thing.

    They never seemed to be all that popular, very expensive to fix. Reliability on the 605 wasn't all that flash, and they only sold about 30, or 40 of them in Oz. The 604's tend to chew up the money as well. They all drive really nice, and had all the creature comforts, but did they have too many comforts??
    The 607 being on a 406 floorplan...not unusual as the Vr commodore is based on the 1979 VB commodore floor plan..?? stingy i reckon....

    Cheers
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  20. #20
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    davemcbean:
    Actually the 505 was much more succesful than the 405 in many markets, so it definitely wasn't a low point. Many people rate the 505 well above the 405 and the 306, and it set the 2 litre standard when it was released in 1979. A good 505 is a hard car to fault. It's a pity that some of the interior parts weren't more durable.

    By numbers the most successful Peugeots are:

    1st 205 5 million+

    2nd 504 3.7 million

    3rd 306 (very close behind the 504, although this position may have changed in the past 12 months)

    followed closely by the 404, 505 and 405 (although I'm not sure of the order)
    Dave,

    I think you will find that the real production numbers for the 505 are hugely disappointing when compared to the car it replaced, the 504. The 505 sold only about 1.3 or 1.4 million over its lifespan, about a third of the 504's sales.

    To be honest (as Michael Schumacher would say), the 505 is the model that nearly made Peugeot go bust.

    It was replacing their bread-and-butter and profitable 504 but - as I noted above - sold very poorly, considering Peugeot's expectations. Peugeot was on the brink a little over twenty years ago, with very dodgy finances indeed.

    Fortunately the 205 came along and saved Peugeot's fesses

    The 405 sold well (I can't remember off hand if it topped 3 million, though I think it did), but the 406 has not in comparison. Rather like the 504/505, though perhaps not as extreme a gap between the two.

    That the 607 is the subject of heavy criticism is no surprise to me. A French magazine showed a 607 actually up on two wheels about to flip over during an "Elk Test" several months before the car was due to be released. It was the cover shot and the huge headline was "CATASTROPHE!". The 607's proclivity to do "the SUV thing" forced Peugeot to make ESP mandatory on that model, a suspension redesign being impossible at that stage. A band-aid solution if there ever was one! By some accounts the ESP enters into action fairly early, which is an annoyance to keen drivers, evidently in an attempt to prevent the car from tripping and falling over wink

    Besides that, the car is quite ugly, especially the front. It looks like a 1993 Chevrolet Caprice and that is no good thing, believe me!
    -Mike
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  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Cant_get_enough_of_peugeots:
    It must be a 604/5/7 thing.

    They never seemed to be all that popular, very expensive to fix. Reliability on the 605 wasn't all that flash, and they only sold about 30, or 40 of them in Oz. The 604's tend to chew up the money as well. They all drive really nice, and had all the creature comforts, but did they have too many comforts??
    The 607 being on a 406 floorplan...not unusual as the Vr commodore is based on the 1979 VB commodore floor plan..?? stingy i reckon....

    Cheers
    Adrian
    i think it's just the 07 thing of late
    once again another 07 has been road tested and come up again with flaws
    peugeot are going to have to look at what they have created with their new range and come back to what they had with the 06 and try to create from there
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  22. #22
    XTC
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    pugrambo:
    i think it's just the 07 thing of late
    once again another 07 has been road tested and come up again with flaws
    I'd rather have a 406 Coupe .... the 607 $80G Pugs need to be PERFECT and great performers to compete with the German marks (no pun intended) ... but engine, handling, fit and finish are never up to it. whip

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  23. #23
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    The on the road price for a 607 is an amazing $86k (I bet you could haggle a hellava lot off that). When you're paying that much money, I don't think a set of Callaway golf clubs is going to really sway you to get a 607 (little wonder they just don't sell - it's not hard to understand why Renault got cold feet with the Vel Satis). At least it has a big boot to fit the clubs inside.

    At that end of the market, the badge has little cachet. Sure that's snobby, but the badge is almost everything at that end of the market. In terms of size and features, it's good value, but as an overall package it's not competitive. All you have to do is look at the demo prices - knocking $20k off the price advertised and they always expect you to haggle more off anyway.

    The quality in the 607 is the best of the Pugs (as you'd hope) but things like the wood inlays just look too fake. Actually I'm more concerned about the quality in the 406 Coupe, for a car that'll be not that far from $75k ORC (RRP) it's pretty average. You can't just put leather and turn a repmobile into a luxury coupe. Still it looks great from the outside (although the big mouthed styling update is a step in the wrong direction, I can imagine Mr Pininfarina shaking his head).

    I tried to find stats on 607 production, but I noticed Peugeot never mentions it - could find 307, 206 and C3 stats though.

    Large Pugs have never really made it and I doubt the business case really exists for them. They seem more like an exercise in national pride.

    Actually, if I think about it, the 607 probably is the worst received Peugeot in recent times. I know Sean can't stand the 307, but even the 307 has had a better reception from the press and public

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  24. #24
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    Pug307:
    The on the road price for a 607 is an amazing $86k (I bet you could haggle a hellava lot off that
    I've only ever seen one on the showroom floor (it's the same car that's been there for ages) - and what does the principle drive - you guessed it a citroen_ C5.

    That'll make the citroen_ guys happy

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  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    Stuey:
    Rod, Those era of BMW's (of which I've owned 3) were great on roads you knew, where you could press on with abandon. But they were diabolical in situations where you might need to ease off mid corner. I was caught a few times in the country where I didn't have the faith in the car to push that little bit harder, especially on dampish corners.

    The chicane test is a bit pointless...

    Cheers

    Stuey
    I agree Stuey. We had a 3.0si (1979) and it was a marvellous car in many respects, but truly frightening on gravel. Had something like 200bhp and liked bitumen, but on gravel you always felt like you were about to lose control. I never did, but I'm quite certain that I went bloody close occasionally.

    We had a 1973 Ford Escort at the same time (I learned to drive fast in that, actually) and it was enirely different from the Beemer in every respect, especially on dirt. It handled impeccably. Predictable and quick. And cheap. And, I have to say, I've not yet come across a truly superior gear-shift to that of the Escort.

    Cheers,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

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