PRV rear seal leak
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Jason Morris's Avatar
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    Default PRV rear seal leak

    Hi, has anyone had leaking rear main oil seals on a PRV ? My 2850cc even-fire V6 has started to drip puddles overnight quite suddenly. I read on the US forum that they are prone to leak, the engine has done 220,000k so it has done well so far. There has always been a slight weep of engine oil out of the bell housing area, but this has increased suddenly.
    Not looking forward to doing an engine out on this baby!! I've had so many grazed knuckles removing the tailshaft/axle on this wagon I might condsider trying to leave everything connected and dropping the gearbox/torque tube/rear axle down and sliding the lot backwards ?! (4sp auto 1990, almost impossible to get to the hex bolts on the ball joint....)

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    When this happened on a XN1 505 I had it was excessive crankcase pressure from a SOLIDLY blocked breather mesh!!

  2. #2
    Tadpole Rowley's Avatar
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    Icon5 1990 505 wagon cheap! 2 cheap??

    Hi, I was looking at ebay and found a 1990 505 wagon. F/inj, 290 000km for only $1200 with pictures etc. Does this seem to good to be true to anyone else? Hell I pay over $3k for my '84 model 4 years ago. Plus no-one had bid the last time I looked.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default PRV rear seal leak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Morris
    Hi, has anyone had leaking rear main oil seals on a PRV ? My 2850cc even-fire V6 has started to drip puddles overnight quite suddenly. I read on the US forum that they are prone to leak, the engine has done 220,000k so it has done well so far. There has always been a slight weep of engine oil out of the bell housing area, but this has increased suddenly.
    Not looking forward to doing an engine out on this baby!! I've had so many grazed knuckles removing the tailshaft/axle on this wagon I might condsider trying to leave everything connected and dropping the gearbox/torque tube/rear axle down and sliding the lot backwards ?! (4sp auto 1990, almost impossible to get to the hex bolts on the ball joint....)

    When this happened on a XN1 505 I had it was excessive crankcase pressure from a SOLIDLY blocked breather mesh!!
    Jason,
    The blocked breather also applies to the V6. Check this first along with the vacuum and hose connections.
    Otherwise, engine out. LEAVE the torque converter on the trans. Mark the relationship of the converter to the flywheel/driveplate.
    If you buy the new seal from Volvo parts it will have a plastic sleeve fitted to prevent damage to the sealing lip when installing, remove afterwards.
    All other cautions and care apply.

  4. #4
    farmerdave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Morris
    Hi, has anyone had leaking rear main oil seals on a PRV ? My 2850cc even-fire V6 has started to drip puddles overnight quite suddenly. I read on the US forum that they are prone to leak, the engine has done 220,000k so it has done well so far. There has always been a slight weep of engine oil out of the bell housing area, but this has increased suddenly.
    Wildebeest has the right idea, check the breathers. Does the engine have to come out on a 505?
    I recently did the renault one, and used a seal from a local bearing place. The new seal was a viton double lip one as apposed to the old silicone single lip type, cost about $60 but apparently the viton is better at keeping hot oil in. The nw seal was 10 mm deep instead of the original 12 mm so that when pushed in flush the lips are running on an unworn section of the crankshaft.
    Removing the seal housing makes it easier to remove and replace the seal without damaging it , there is also a gasket behind here that can leak just as bad as a worn seal. Hylomar and some thin gasket paper is your friend here.

    Farmerdave

  5. #5
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    get the car up and go from underneath

    it is much easier than taking the PRV out

    been there once or twice
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

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  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default PRV seal.

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    get the car up and go from underneath

    it is much easier than taking the PRV out

    been there once or twice
    'rambo,
    Yes getting the car up, on a hoist would be OK. To raise the car high enough to crawl around on your back, aarrgghh!
    Old saying. "Only two types of people work on their backs, mechanics and prostitutes".

  7. #7
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    'rambo,
    Yes getting the car up, on a hoist would be OK. To raise the car high enough to crawl around on your back, aarrgghh!
    Old saying. "Only two types of people work on their backs, mechanics and prostitutes".

    bieng a wagon makes it easier

    jsut jack it up at the rear and put stands under it then jack up under the diff

    undo what needs undoing and roll the rear end back and voila the back of the motor is looking at you

    undo the 3 bolts holding the convertor on making sure to loctite them putting them back in and then remove the flywheel again making a mark even though it only goes one way just to make sure you don't start pulling hair put trying to remember which way it went

    the rest is easy

    1/2 a days work and a lot less effort than trying to remove this particular engine from it's home and trying to get it back it with the limited room that only a frenchman can get into

    one tip os to not remove the starter but to just undo the bolts through the bell housing and leave it hanging on the rear bracket otherwise you need to remove the oil filter

    good time to give the tranny a good oil change as well if you like
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default PRV6 oil leak..

    I've made the old mistake of not fully reading the thread and took it to be a 505 with V6, marketed in NZ ? but not Aus. Further on I read it is a wagon?
    I didn't think the V6 was fitted to these so are we dealing with a bitza?
    Oh, to knock the job off in half a day crawling around on your back?? I think you are in the wrong game 'rambo. One of the top bonus driven workshops could be on the lookout for you.

    Another old saying. "Never hurry, never worry and always crap in the boss's time".

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! Jason Morris's Avatar
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    Well spotted, it is a 1990 505 XN1A GR that has had the front end of a V6 sedan dropped under it, including rack/ABS struts/variable power steer (driveshaft/housing and gearbox mount extended forward by 60mm take note, engine sits in factory position!!)
    Have had it for two years and the engine/box has been no trouble at all, although I did save it from death once already when the two inch long cooling hose on the very back of the water pump cracked
    I cautiously raise my vote for the much maligned ZF4HP22...even in my previous 1989 XN1A 2L 505 wagon it was a fantastic box, but the engine had to be in top tune to make it feel responsive. No problems in that dept with 6 pots, autos love low down torque. This particular box was given a working over and 'set up for sporty driving' - it even changes down like a manual esp from 3..2 as you reduce speed below 40k. And, it holds lower gears for longer when accelerating. They are reputed to be expensive to overhaul, I don't know why this should be as they are very common, also in BMW,Jags,RangeRover,Volvo, up to 4 litre engines (incidentally all with the same ratio as used by 4 cyl 505 GR's!!) . I couldn't bring myself to own a 3HP22 Peugeot, I've driven an Sti that was utterly dismal, like a 1.6 Corolla auto

    Checked the breathers last night, looks ok. Engine took 3 litres to get to top level. 505 V6 has a oil level gauge that does seem to work, there are 5 gradation on it and it takes about 5.5 litres from empty, so it's likely I caught it in time. Oil light still went out on starter cranking.

    Pugrambo, sounds like you are an eternal optimist like myself (currently with two Peugeots running, two on blocks...). Perhaps we derive sadistic pleasure from defeating the saying "if you can't afford to buy a new european car, you certainly can't afford on older one"!!! And to think I was looking at a CX familiale project last week...

    Next step is degrease and try and see exactly where it is coming from

  10. #10
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Jason,

    Just to add my two cents worth......

    To make it easier to get to the bolts that hold the engine to the gearbox, removed one bolt from each side of the crossmember and replace with a cylinder head bolt (XN motors use the right thread). Then undo the other two bolts and lower the engine down on a jack..... You should be able to get an extra 6" clearance like this without any trouble, you might have to removed the fan shroud from the radiator first. Keep an eye open for stretching hoses/cables/etc. The head bolts make it really easy to realign the crossmember in the right place when you've put it all back together - just jack it back up!

    On another note, you suggest that the engine position in the V6 is different to what would be normal if you used a 604 engine mount/gearbox arrangement. Would you be able to take some photos of the underbody of the car, specifically the engine mounts and the clearance between the steering rack and the bottom of the bellhousing. Reason I ask is that my 505 V6 BA10/5 gearbox sits only about 20mm behind the steering rack, and to move the engine forward at all would require taking a fair chunk out of the gearbox bell housing, something I'm not really keen on doing, considering how hard it was to find the bell housing!!

    So yeah, some photos and/or measurements would be really nice, since you're going to be under the car anyway
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Jason Morris's Avatar
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    I thought the engine position comments might shift some dust ! It makes a difference to engine bay space at the usually tight firewall to rocker cover point with a V6 conversion, the car has factory aircon and I can still get my hand around there! The battery is mounted forwards & up higher on V6's to allow a space underneath for the variable powersteer modulator, which drives fantastically by the way, although I don't find standard 505 p/s too twitchy at speed. Thanks for the hint on crossmember dropping, it would make it easier to roll everything back with the body up that extra bit higher.
    Sure, photos are no problem, I've been meaning to do it for a while. I have access to a hoist so I should take the oppotunity to document how it was done, especially as the gearbox mount was extended too. There are far more 4sp autos over here I think, so some might not have seen the complex rear mount used on S2 505's. This conversion was done in 1996 to a then six year old wagon, using a 505 V6 sedan that had been rear-ended, total cost of NZ$16000. Murphys law struck while having the donor car transported up country - it fell off the transporter!! Whilst the V6 front suspension and steering is nicely set up, in some ways using it on this conversion has left me stuck with hard to find parts - the steering rack is different (made by Bendix I think) and both end joints are pretty flogged out. Brakes and shocks are different also. If a 505 Gti front end had been used parts are dime a dozen - I just got a whole car for $150 (yes including 15" alloys ). The rattly steering is the thing that lets the car down at the moment, shocks are all in good shape.

  12. #12
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    I'm not familiar with the rear gearbox mount setup for the 4 speed wagons, though I believe that in the sedans they utilise a shorter tailshaft and link tube.

    I'm guessing that since the steering rack is different, perhaps the entire crossmember is different to accomodate the V6? In mine, the flywheel hangs so low that moving it forward would cause the flywheel and bell housing to interfere with the steering rack.

    Very keen to see some photos
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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