504 Rally Modification Success
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  1. #1
    Tadpole rally504's Avatar
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    Default 504 Rally Modification Success

    Since most of my knowledge and ideas came from this forum I thought I would give you all a progress report on my 504 TI rally car.

    It already had a manual carby diff, 3.89:1; was completely stripped out and running Aussport remould rally tires. The two rearward mufflers were removed and it was nicely tuned. It also had some new Pedders 4WD shocks in the rear. At this stage it was earning me outright placings in the high teens but nothing really competitive.

    Over summer I removed the entire front suspension and rebuilt the lot with my newfound knowledge.

    Installed 505 front struts and arms for camber (also gives wider wheelbase).
    LIP GasTech shocks in the front (pedders still in the rear).
    505 STI springs (all round)
    505 STI power steering rack without power (3.4 lock to lock instead of 4.5).
    505 STI front swaybar
    Anything made of rubber was replaced
    505 STI front brakes (greater brake pad surface area)

    I also fitted an early model 505 big bore exhaust manifold with a two inch system and a single lukey ultraflow straight through muffler. I also had it dyno tuned again.

    On the road it had significantly less body roll and the ride was harsher due to the STI springs but it did handle much better. The steering was not as heavy as I thought it might be. It has a lot more torque and revved through much easier.

    At the first Khanacross for the year there were a massive 50 entries. There is a couple big bumps in the track that unsettle most cars the mighty pug glided over them like they weren't there. It was supreme. All day people were saying how smooth the pug went around the track. The extra power really helped pull it out of the tight corners in second gear. The camber helped massively on turn in and through the slalom. My mate in his insanely tourqey supercharged datsun stanza, also equipped with suspension mods and rally tires and datsun driver attitude could not believe that I was beating his times by so much. I ended up coming 2nd in my class to a club veteran known as 'the god' in his wild datsun 1600 2ltr and 3rd outright.

    I competed in my second Khanacross the weekend just gone and proved I just didn't have a good day at that first rally. Again the pug performed superbly. Ended up 1st in my class and 5th outright. (there were some fellas out testing for the ARC)

    I am goin to fit a locked diff in the near future and a half roll cage. I might also move the battery to the boot to try and even up the weight distribution a bit.

    Thanks for your advice and ideas guys, greatly appreciated.

    Justin.

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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rally504
    Since most of my knowledge and ideas came from this forum I thought I would give you all a progress report on my 504 TI rally car.

    It already had a manual carby diff, 3.89:1; was completely stripped out and running Aussport remould rally tires. The two rearward mufflers were removed and it was nicely tuned. It also had some new Pedders 4WD shocks in the rear. At this stage it was earning me outright placings in the high teens but nothing really competitive.

    Over summer I removed the entire front suspension and rebuilt the lot with my newfound knowledge.

    Installed 505 front struts and arms for camber (also gives wider wheelbase).
    LIP GasTech shocks in the front (pedders still in the rear).
    505 STI springs (all round)
    505 STI power steering rack without power (3.4 lock to lock instead of 4.5).
    505 STI front swaybar
    Anything made of rubber was replaced
    505 STI front brakes (greater brake pad surface area)

    I also fitted an early model 505 big bore exhaust manifold with a two inch system and a single lukey ultraflow straight through muffler. I also had it dyno tuned again.

    On the road it had significantly less body roll and the ride was harsher due to the STI springs but it did handle much better. The steering was not as heavy as I thought it might be. It has a lot more torque and revved through much easier.

    At the first Khanacross for the year there were a massive 50 entries. There is a couple big bumps in the track that unsettle most cars the mighty pug glided over them like they weren't there. It was supreme. All day people were saying how smooth the pug went around the track. The extra power really helped pull it out of the tight corners in second gear. The camber helped massively on turn in and through the slalom. My mate in his insanely tourqey supercharged datsun stanza, also equipped with suspension mods and rally tires and datsun driver attitude could not believe that I was beating his times by so much. I ended up coming 2nd in my class to a club veteran known as 'the god' in his wild datsun 1600 2ltr and 3rd outright.

    I competed in my second Khanacross the weekend just gone and proved I just didn't have a good day at that first rally. Again the pug performed superbly. Ended up 1st in my class and 5th outright. (there were some fellas out testing for the ARC)

    I am goin to fit a locked diff in the near future and a half roll cage. I might also move the battery to the boot to try and even up the weight distribution a bit.

    Thanks for your advice and ideas guys, greatly appreciated.

    Justin.
    Sounds impressive, I wouldn't mind doing something similar to my 505 . Just wondering what did it put out on the dyno ?



    Glen
    1981 505GR sedan - Work in Progress

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! WAUTY205's Avatar
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    Nice one Justin!

    I can't wait to get my engine back together & get out there again myself. There is a rally on the 10th of sept. i'm aiming for.

    -Will
    1990 205Gti
    1976 504 rally car (currently out of action)

  4. #4
    Tadpole rally504's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuGmAn
    Sounds impressive, I wouldn't mind doing something similar to my 505 . Just wondering what did it put out on the dyno ?



    Glen
    Unfortunately it was getting late in the day and they didn't end up doing a power run. The first time it made 110 hp at the wheels but it definately has more after the new exhaust, at least another 10 hp.

    Justin

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! enthused!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rally504
    Unfortunately it was getting late in the day and they didn't end up doing a power run. The first time it made 110 hp at the wheels but it definately has more after the new exhaust, at least another 10 hp.

    Justin
    nice work Justin..

    thats quite respectable... good luck in your future rallies and keep us posted.

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  6. #6
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Sounds great. You say the ride is "harsher", relatively speaking, but it should still ride quite well with your setup, I'd think..? A 505 STi wasn't a harsh car.

    What else have you done to the engine to get 110-120hp at the wheels? That's pretty impressive.
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn
    Sounds great. You say the ride is "harsher", relatively speaking, but it should still ride quite well with your setup, I'd think..? A 505 STi wasn't a harsh car.

    What else have you done to the engine to get 110-120hp at the wheels? That's pretty impressive.

    well a standard TI puts out 117hp at the flywheel so it would be interesting to see where the rest has come from

    i know the big bore and free flowing system make a difference

    there isn't a lot yuo can do with the cams in TI's as they rely on vacuum
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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    ah well done there sir got me drooling at the mouth there with that 04 of yours..

    Its good to hear there still compeditive aswell!! Maybe your just a bit of a gun driver, ut now honestly everytime ill be looking over at my 05, those evil motor-sport related thoughts ive een harbouring will cause emense internal satisfaction hearing of your success

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    well a standard TI puts out 117hp at the flywheel so it would be interesting to see where the rest has come from

    i know the big bore and free flowing system make a difference

    there isn't a lot yuo can do with the cams in TI's as they rely on vacuum
    110 actually and that is SAE. Only 104 DIN.
    The STI has 117 DIN.
    120 at wheels is more than group 1 rally spec and it takes a fair bit to achieve this, bigger valves, cam, compression etc etc.
    To get more than 140 at flywheel you need bigger throttle body, extended inlet tract etc. as for the group 2 rally cars. The factory had a lot of trouble with valve gear with these higher performance versions and according to someone I talked to who had navigated for Peter Huth in the Safari rally in Kenya, no low down torque at all.
    He had to jump out and push to help get the car up very steep inclines!!
    Graham
    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 29th July 2005 at 08:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rally504
    Since most of my knowledge and ideas came from this forum I thought I would give you all a progress report on my 504 TI rally car.

    It already had a manual carby diff, 3.89:1; was completely stripped out and running Aussport remould rally tires. The two rearward mufflers were removed and it was nicely tuned. It also had some new Pedders 4WD shocks in the rear. At this stage it was earning me outright placings in the high teens but nothing really competitive.

    Over summer I removed the entire front suspension and rebuilt the lot with my newfound knowledge.

    Installed 505 front struts and arms for camber (also gives wider wheelbase).
    LIP GasTech shocks in the front (pedders still in the rear).
    505 STI springs (all round)
    505 STI power steering rack without power (3.4 lock to lock instead of 4.5).
    505 STI front swaybar
    Anything made of rubber was replaced
    505 STI front brakes (greater brake pad surface area)

    I also fitted an early model 505 big bore exhaust manifold with a two inch system and a single lukey ultraflow straight through muffler. I also had it dyno tuned again.

    On the road it had significantly less body roll and the ride was harsher due to the STI springs but it did handle much better. The steering was not as heavy as I thought it might be. It has a lot more torque and revved through much easier.

    At the first Khanacross for the year there were a massive 50 entries. There is a couple big bumps in the track that unsettle most cars the mighty pug glided over them like they weren't there. It was supreme. All day people were saying how smooth the pug went around the track. The extra power really helped pull it out of the tight corners in second gear. The camber helped massively on turn in and through the slalom. My mate in his insanely tourqey supercharged datsun stanza, also equipped with suspension mods and rally tires and datsun driver attitude could not believe that I was beating his times by so much. I ended up coming 2nd in my class to a club veteran known as 'the god' in his wild datsun 1600 2ltr and 3rd outright.

    I competed in my second Khanacross the weekend just gone and proved I just didn't have a good day at that first rally. Again the pug performed superbly. Ended up 1st in my class and 5th outright. (there were some fellas out testing for the ARC)

    I am goin to fit a locked diff in the near future and a half roll cage. I might also move the battery to the boot to try and even up the weight distribution a bit.

    Thanks for your advice and ideas guys, greatly appreciated.

    Justin.

    What sort of Pedders shocks are these, with the exception of a very special pair of deCarbons (I think they must have been Super Africa spec) I have never found anything to work well in the back of 504/505 except original 505 shocks from 84 models or later. These are now getting harder to find in good condition and of course won't be stiff enough to match rally spec springs. Apart from getting some special Bilstein or big bore Konis made I don't know of any alternatives.
    Was the khanacross at Walky Park? Chris Jones did a fair bit of demoralising the opposition there in a 404 a few years ago.
    Graham
    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 29th July 2005 at 08:28 AM.

  11. #11
    Tadpole rally504's Avatar
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    My apologies guys, I wasn't sure of the dyno figure and 110 just popped into my head. It actually had 80hp at the wheels which equates to about 110 at the fly after you account for approx 30% drivetrain losses which is about what they came from the factory with. If only it had 110 at the wheels!

    It definately goes a lot better with the exhaust modifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn
    Sounds great. You say the ride is "harsher", relatively speaking, but it should still ride quite well with your setup, I'd think..? A 505 STi wasn't a harsh car.
    You are quite right. The ride is not harsh at all, just a little stiffer relative to the ride with the standard springs.

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    What sort of Pedders shocks are these, with the exception of a very special pair of deCarbons (I think they must have Super Africa spec) I have never found anything to work well in the back of 504/505 except original 505 shocks from 84 models or later. These are now getting harder to find in good condition and of course won't be stiff enough to match rally spec springs. Apart from getting some special Bilstein or big bore Konis made I don't know of any alternatives.
    Was the khanacross at Walky Park? Chris Jones did a fair bit of demoralising the opposition there in a 404 a few years ago.
    Graham
    Graham, the rear shockers are just standard toyota hilux front shockers. They are ok but not ideal. They are a little stiff actually but they keep the rear end fairly settled down. They were the very first thing I changed before I began checking out the various options available.

    The khanacross was at the Southern Districts Car Club track 'Lanac Park'. It is in top condition at the moment and they have recently added an 'H' in the middle of the track which gives them a multitude of track options instead of just clockwise or anti-clockwise. Unfortunately Walky Park is a little rough for me at the moment, their grader has been out of action for a year or so and it is quite rocky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rally504
    My apologies guys, I wasn't sure of the dyno figure and 110 just popped into my head. It actually had 80hp at the wheels which equates to about 110 at the fly after you account for approx 30% drivetrain losses which is about what they came from the factory with. If only it had 110 at the wheels!

    It definately goes a lot better with the exhaust modifications.



    You are quite right. The ride is not harsh at all, just a little stiffer relative to the ride with the standard springs.



    Graham, the rear shockers are just standard toyota hilux front shockers. They are ok but not ideal. They are a little stiff actually but they keep the rear end fairly settled down. They were the very first thing I changed before I began checking out the various options available.

    The khanacross was at the Southern Districts Car Club track 'Lanac Park'. It is in top condition at the moment and they have recently added an 'H' in the middle of the track which gives them a multitude of track options instead of just clockwise or anti-clockwise. Unfortunately Walky Park is a little rough for me at the moment, their grader has been out of action for a year or so and it is quite rocky.

    Thanks for the info reading shocks Justin.
    Even if the Pedders items are not suitable there should be some high quality Hi Lux shockers available.
    We are using Lanac Park as part of the Ampol Trial rerun next year. We have it booked for the morning of Sunday the 14th of May.
    Come down and see a large field of 50s and 60s Peugeots and other makes of that era.
    We will be competing at Collingrove the afternoon before and will start on the Sunday morning from the new Peugeot dealer in Adelaide.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by rally504
    Since most of my knowledge and ideas came from this forum I thought I would give you all a progress report on my 504 TI rally car.
    Any body modifications? Seams welded or body strengthened? What size wheels are you running?

    Peter J.
    PJ

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'm not very familiar with current Hi Lux front shocks at all... but it occurs to me that they would probably be a little short...

    What do they measure, from the base of the top stem to the centre of the lower eye, both open and closed?

    I think you might find, based on your comments, that a slightly lighter damper will actually improve rear wheel traction. Graham's suggestion of big bore Konis is a good one, you can get them valved as you like and they are adjustable on rebound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I'm not very familiar with current Hi Lux front shocks at all... but it occurs to me that they would probably be a little short...

    What do they measure, from the base of the top stem to the centre of the lower eye, both open and closed?

    I think you might find, based on your comments, that a slightly lighter damper will actually improve rear wheel traction. Graham's suggestion of big bore Konis is a good one, you can get them valved as you like and they are adjustable on rebound.
    The V6 505 rally car has works front springs with konis but on the rear just standard STI springs and shocks. This gives great traction but the torque makes the tail drop and the handling is not great. It tends to understeer coming into the corner then oversteer excessively under power on the exit. The rear tyres are working on the inside of the tread only.
    Hopefully stiffer rear suspension will see the car better balanced.
    At the moment you approach corners slowly then slide sideways on the exit, a recipe for slow times!
    Graham

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Or a softer front suspension?

    My comments were purely about damping, nothing to do with springing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Or a softer front suspension?

    My comments were purely about damping, nothing to do with springing...
    The front feels great and don't forget it has to work on rough surfaces and not bottom out.
    The shockers simply have to match the spring rates so stiffer springs means stiffer shocks.
    Graham

  18. #18
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    The front feels great and don't forget it has to work on rough surfaces and not bottom out.
    The shockers simply have to match the spring rates so stiffer springs means stiffer shocks.
    Graham

    how much stiffer are the fronts ? 25% ?

    my V6 504 was great both on and off raod with stiffer springs front and rear

    i did have good standard 504 springs in the rear for a bit with konis but i changed that very quickly

    they need a good balance so a bit stiffer in the rear would help and get power down nicely and stop the rear end squash
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    how much stiffer are the fronts ? 25% ?

    my V6 504 was great both on and off raod with stiffer springs front and rear

    i did have good standard 504 springs in the rear for a bit with konis but i changed that very quickly

    they need a good balance so a bit stiffer in the rear would help and get power down nicely and stop the rear end squash
    Probably a bit more than that, they are actually very historic, being spares from the Peugeot team cars that competed in the 1977 London Sydney Marathon!
    This car has been absolutely caned in all sorts of motorsport for over 4 years now and the rebuilt twice before (whilst in standard road cars) koni reds have stood up to it no problems at all. When the front end is not crashing out all of the time the body and the shockers get a much easier time of it. I had the shafts shortened by 10mm to further guard against the foot valves being smashed and this may have helped the shockers to last.
    Just out of interest this car weighs in at just 1200kg with rollcage, rally equipment, BA10/4 etc.
    Graham

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    It's actually more progressivity you need with heavier springs...

    A steeper curve in the damper graph.

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