Pug Diesels: what's the consensus?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Inspector Clouseau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    North Coast NSW

    Pug Diesels: what's the consensus?

    Hi all
    I'm contemplating a Pug purchase and am considering a diesel. It'd be mainly for country miles. I've had a number of petrol Pugs and loved 'em.
    What's the perceived wisdom on the longevity/reliability/economy/fixability etc of diesels? Are there any lemon models? What about 405 turbo diesels?
    I'd be grateful for any opinions.
    Thanks in advance.
    The Inspector

    <small>[ 29 August 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Inspector Clouseau ]</small>


  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Newcastle, NSW, Australia
    Gday Inspector, roll_lau

    It depends on what diesel pug you are talking about.

    505 old, slow snail but seem to entertain their owners quite well, a few around.

    405, 306 (early XRDT's) have roughly the same engine?? I think. Ok fuel economy, have no idea about drivability as I never have.

    307/406 (possibly late 306) are HDi's. Yummy stuff, would buy one in a second if I had the money. Decent acc, power etc and real nice fuel bills.

    After all that I could be wrong with models etc but off the top of my head atleast.

    Jono whistle

    <small>[ 30 August 2003, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: crosspug ]</small>
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Queensland, Australia
    I'm the moderator of a very large French car forum overseas and they may be a better source of info on soup suppers than here.
    From what I see, based on the Cit diesels (Bx & Xantia mainly) they had about 3 types over in the UK,
    The 19RD (normally aspirated 1.9 litre)
    The 17 TDR (Turbo diesel 1.7 litre)
    The 19 TDR ( Turbo 1.9 litre) This was sold in Europe in numbers, but not in the UK.

    The common pair are the 19RD & 17TDR and from a few years of involvement over there it is my opnion that if you want a car for a lot of long distance runs, then the 19RD is the go. It's described as "nippy" by some and a slug by others.
    As regards reliability, there's a write up about one on Andyspares site that has done 900,000 MILES almost troublefree eek!
    As a general overall car, the most popular is the 17TDR which as the name inplies is a 1.7 litre diesel but with performance to match the petrol versions. in fact if you find performance figures for a 1.7 diesel and a 1.9 litre 16 valve, there's not a real lot of difference.
    Fuel consumption is around 50 MPG and nearly all talk about extra big troublefree mileages.
    The archilles heal is the cooling system in them; not that it's badly designed but due to a combination of weather and PSA and their "brainwashing" on maintenance intervals, will tend to overheat if not kept right up to scratch & will then cause the head to crack. They crack between the valve seats so it's a painfully expensive exercise when they do. The cooling systems don't just jam up, they simply reduce in volume of circulation due to scale & muck & tend to give intermittent cooling which gives hotspots & hence sudden contraction of extremely hot alloys with predictable results.
    Repairs to diesels of ANY breed are frightfully expensive with almost any job being of the 4 figure variety so if you do none of your own service or don't have access to a competent mechanic working at realistic rates or not Packers love child with a book waiting to be published, I'd say you would need to tread very carefully. cry deal
    I would expect that the Pug range would be exactly the same engines so that's hopefully some help to you but if you would like more info, you could ask the question on this board & I'd suggest you ask on both the Pug as well as the Citroen forum as many of the Cit owners also have or at least have owned Pugs & I think you'll get plenty to go on with.
    FWIW, I understand the PSA diesels are the most popular passenger diesel by far in Europe & the UK & are considered in the trade as the best in the World in design, reliability & longeivity.

    <a href="http://www.andyspares.com/discussionforum/default.asp" target="_blank">http://www.andyspares.com/discussionforum/default.asp</a>

    Another interesting string is:

    <a href="http://www.andyspares.com/discussionforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3840&whichpage=1" target="_blank">http://www.andyspares.com/discussionforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3840&whichpage=1</a>

    Alan S 2_cents

    [Edit] 2nd Link added

    <small>[ 30 August 2003, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Alan S ]</small>
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    I have 2 pug diesels, a 505srdt, and a 405srdt, the 50 is certainly a little slower than it could be however was transformed when changed to 5 spd from a manual.

    The 405 is the pick however, I recently purchased it from this forum. Took a mate up to local cardboard pizza shop last night, said it dosent sound like a diesel and it goes like a petrol. The art of driving a diesel is to operate in its ample torque range with the snail spinning freely. The 405 driven between 2-3k rpm (producing max torque at 2250) is very enjoyable. It will sit there and cruise all day sipping minimal fuel. Recent CBR SYD CBR 652klms 28litres diesel 5.75litres per hundred. Around town it is returning between 6 and 7 litres per hundred. This car was originally a long distance country car and in its 9 years has covered 385k klms it is still tight and responsive. (guess that covers longevity) With regular oil and coolant changes, and injector services by reputable diesel injection specialists (I use Cooma diesel) You will have a very long and happy association with your diesel. As a bonus you get to drive past most of the dearer fuel stations as even with the fuel light on you have over 100klms of range in the tank.

    As an aside you can make your own fuel (biodiesel)
    see <a href="http://www.journeytoforever.org" target="_blank">www.journeytoforever.org</a>

    I also own an intercooled turbo landcruiser and a diesel Mazda 929
    '94 405 SRBT

    '82 CX 2400 Pallas 5spd

    '77 CX 2400 Pallas 4spd manual Import

    '76 CX Super

    '05 WL Statesman

    '92 HZJ80 Landcruiser

  5. #5
    Member Scott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Inverell NSW
    Hi I have a 505 GTD series 2. I also drive 2 old v8 fords and think the diesel goes very well compared to them. Where we live is fairly hilly ie Inverell is 550m altitude and the farm is 800m so its uphill all the way home. I get on average 38-40mpg driving at 110 most of the time with a little town driving thrown in. I haven't had the car very long but from my experience the diesel motor is very good. There are a lot of rubber hoses which may cause problems. I have just finished doing up the head, which included new pre combustion chambers, guides, valve grind and gaskets and it cost $1900 including labour. I helped but there isn't a lot of room to work in the bay. It took a hour just to get the manifolds on. Plus you have to retention the head bolts after running the engine, so you have to take all the rocker gear off, then put it back on and redo the tappets again. Be very carefull when looking at cars to make sure the head gasket is not blown. ie bubbles in the header tank when full of water $$$. I was originally looking to purchase a cheaper higher milage 405 but was warned off by some people as they may be more prone to problems when getting older. You have to change the timing belt in them every 100K, I was told which can cost $600 or more. Both models would be Ok really, just make sure you get one that has been looked after properly, especially the coolant and regular oil changes. In my opinion the turbo diesels have ample speed and power for most situations and can do high milage if looked after.
    1987 Peugeot 505 GTD 2.5 Turbo

  6. #6
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Lilydale, Melbourne
    I owned a 505 SRDTurbo (2.3litre) for 11 months so I can't really comment on reliability, although this one had done 340000kays and I didn't have any trouble with it while I had it. Performance-wise, I found it a little slow off the mark but fine once up to speed, it cruised beautifully and had no trouble overtaking.

    I'm also wondering, how are the modern (405 on) diesels for maintenance? I also used to own a 1990 405 Mi16 and got a bit depressed with the constant replacing of parts. The engine was pretty trouble-free, but there was always some other ancillary or suspension part that was worn or on the way out. Are the diesel models better in this way?

    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    My father had a 504 diesel for a short time, and my grandfather had one for some years.
    The one my father had was slightly hotted up, and it would do 200 if asked. My grandfather's one had been tuned differently, and was slower but more economical. Grandad was a terror, and could kill even a new 403 in a few years. His Nissan 720, although only a couple of years old, was a wreck when he remodelled it in a cutting and got the 504.
    He was the only person I know who blew 2 head gaskets in as many years, but apart from all of the new lights, many dents, and rust from a holiday to Cape York, he naver had any trouble with it.
    Pugs Rule!

    403, now sold
    404, project
    2010 Mitsubishi i MiEV electric car

  8. #8
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Camden NSW & Selwyn NZ
    My father had a 504 diesel for a short time, and my grandfather had one for some years.
    The one my father had was slightly hotted up, and it would do 200 if asked.
    So what diff and gearbox did he use to get it to pull 200km/h at under 5000rpm? What turbo did he fit?

    I can understand how the turbodiesel 505GTD with 3.3:1 diff and 0.82:1 overdrive could possibly do 200km/h, but a naturally aspirated 504 with a 3.7:1 diff and 1:1 top is another matter. Most 504 diesels are flat out doing 140km/h.

    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! Inspector Clouseau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    North Coast NSW
    Thanks for that to all correspondents.
    I'm going to check out a diesel this week and will keep all and sundry posted on the outcome.
    The Inspector

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    melbourne, VIC
    '94 405 SRDT owner - car has done 320 000 km, as very tight overall (only interior groans are Pug norm at any mileage). Maintenance very straightforward - would agree with other 405 SRDT owners that preventative maintenance is the ideal - keeps things cheap, too.
    Once vehicle over 40km/h has incredible torque.
    Economy from Melbourne to Perth averaged 5.4 l/100km at 120km/h cruising speed & aircon on. Would highly recommend as cruising vehicle - is in its element - city driving less so, related to that slow 0-40 km/h take-off.
    I can forgive it when it does all else so capably.

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