Help. 306 Overheating
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  1. #1
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Help. 306 Overheating

    On my way home from work my car got very hot (110). It always sits on around 90. I was very close to home so babied in there and took a look. The Thermo fans were both on high, the incoming pipe into the radiator was hot, the radiator was hot at one end, going to cold in the middle and other end. I replaced the thermostate only 6 weeks ago.

    After it cooled down, I checked the water level and it was empty in the side resivour (it was full this morning). I filled that then started the car (started normally) and water started being pumped out the header tank. After a while it stopped, engine got hot to 100deg and the thermoes did not come on high. Water then started pumping in the header tank with a few bubbles.

    It was here that I stopped the engine and the water started dropping in the header tank.

    Any ideas?

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  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Brad,

    I'd like to say air in the system, but the bubbles sounds like head gasket mate; sorry.

    Alan S
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Brad, my ride;s only ever done someting similar once.
    i broke the heater matrix feed and return pipes, they go in/out near the master cylinder on the firewall. The plastic coupling is very brittle and snaps often, check that as you could be loosing pressure and having air enter in there.
    Either way it needs a pro check. sorry man. i hope its not a serious as Alan has sugested, whats the oil look like? What happens to the top radiator feed pipe/s does it feel under pressure? is there any oil trace in the coolant? but good luck either way mate. - chris
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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    yeah check the rad cap and oil mixture hopefully they're both clean not milky

  5. #5
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i really hope i am wrong here but it sounds terminal for the gasket
    grab a kit and test the coolant for exhaust gas for starters
    is the car missing at all ?
    any white smoke/steam coming out of the exhaust ?

    check oil for any milky look
    even drain the oil and and have a look
    S16's solid block or wet sleeve ?
    could be liner seals

    i really hope for your sake it is a cracked hose or weeping joint somewhere in the cooling system

    check around inside the car for any moisture around the firewall and up under the dash

    let us know how you go
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  6. #6
    Zen
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    Fellow Frogger! Zen's Avatar
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    aCk! Sounds like the same thing as what happened to my S16. Mechanic took the radiator cap off, topped up the water and started the car, alot of water shot up through and went everywhere... that's when he let out the "f" word and said the head gasket was gone. The pug was losing water from the radiator but I couldn't spot a leak and the exhaust wasn't smokey at all which was weird.

    I'm hoping it's not the case in your situation, Brad.

    Rich

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  7. #7
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    when did you last change the coolant ?
    you changed the thermostat 6 weeks ago
    did you bleed the system ?
    i really hope that only do have air in the system
    the thing is if the temp sender is in air not water the water vapour sends the gauge off the scale
    one thing i could never understand with 203's, 403's and others where the temp sender was in the back of the head not up the front near the water pump where i think it should be

    much more acurate temp readings there

    any getting off topic here so i hope that you haven't bled the system and only have air pockets in the system after doing the thermostat

    thing is air in a cooling system is not good for a gasket
    they like to stay wet
    3 x '78 604 SL

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  8. #8
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Checked the oil, was perfect. I am going to put the system apart tomorrow to see what the problem is. The thing is, I lost coolant sure, but where has it gone? The oil is fine, there is no water inj the cyinders because it started without any weird sounds, no vapor from the exhaust. The only place it can release from is the radiator cap.

    The car is not missing at all. Was running perfect until spotted it over 90deg shortly before I was home.

    Coolant was changed 2 weeks ago by my mechanic.

    In relation to the head gasket, my thoughts are this; if there is a crack in it and gases are being pushed into the cooling system, should the cooling system then be able to push water back into the cylinder when the engine is off, creating hydrauic lock in a cylinder or water in the oil, neither symptoms I am seeing?

    <small>[ 12 September 2003, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: Brad ]</small>
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  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I'd suggest giving it a good thorough bleeding for starters. Be sure you have the valve on the heater matrix in the hottest position before you start as I have seen people try to bleed when in a cool position & it's had a gutful of air trapped in it.
    Start the car from cold, leave idle & keep a check on the temperature movements, particularly the top hose as the thermostat opens. Follow the heat down through the radiator core by feeling its progress. Then feel the hoses for hardness. After about 10 minutes or so, the fans should start up, run for about 3 to 5 minutes & then cut off again. If they do that, then chances are you could have a win. If the hoses start to really feel hard & trying to swell, then my bet is it's done the gasket. If the temperature is evenly spread throughout the cooling system you could be OK and just have had an air lock.
    Water doesn't always find itself into oil or cylinders. We've just done our Spectron with a similar problem. It was just running a bit over temp but if you went to open the radiator 5 or 10 minutes after you stopped, you would hear a bubbling roar coming from the guts of the cooling system and as the cap released the pressure, it would roar out of the filler cap; very uncomfortable. I never had water in the oil and the car didn't miss; they can be quite weird at times.
    If you do those tests & things don't ad up, I wouldn't muck about getting a professional diagnosis on it.

    Alan S
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  10. #10
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Ok, so I took the thermostat out and flushed the systemm with normal water until it was totally clear. I bought some radiator flush, put that into the header tank then bleed the system until the header tank was empty, the refilled it with water. I left the thermostat out.

    Idled for 20mins, then drove around the bloke for 10. engine sat on 90 the who time. We then kept the engine running and put cardboard infront of the radiator. Engine got to 100deg with some revs, then the thermo fans kicked to high. Took the cardboard out and the temp dropped to 92 when the thermo's cut out.

    We tested the thermostat, opened before the water boiled so it is working. Am now waiting for the engine to cool down before we put the thermostat back in, reflush the system and add more coolant.

    At the moment, we are thinking it could be a blocked raditor which is causing the engine to overheat under considerable load. It was a hot day yesterday and I was giving it some stick.

    The other thing we are thinking is that there was no overflow of coolant in the system when we drained it. There still could be a leak somewhere, we jsut cant see steam or coolant leaking. Oil is fine, engine runs fine, no signs of head gasket fault, no gas coming out of the header tank.

    I am perplexed
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  11. #11
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    If it's not leaking when hot & running, check the hoses & fittings on the intake side of the water pump about 5 minutes after the engine has stopped. Park it on a dry concrete floor is as good as any.
    If it's running normal without the thermostat & after it's been drained & refilled, that pretty well writes off a problem with the core being blocked.
    I'd be more inclined to think a possible intermittent fault with the thermostat (which some of the guys in UK change every 2 to 3 years because of their reputation) or that in fact air was in the system.
    Be sure to carefully check for moisture around the heater matrix as a source of possible leaks.
    As soon as you're satisfied the problem is solved, get that "Wyvenhoe Distilled" out of your system before it starts eating holes in things.
    A recent tip from overseas for a cooling system flush; a bottle of vinegar left in the cooling system for a week then drained, fresh water flushed and new coolant put in.

    Alan S cheers!
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  12. #12
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    So I put it back together with the thermostat and new coolant. Drop the lady in the city the afternoon, and it gradually got hotter each time I pulled up at lights though would drop to 90 when running. When I got home, coolant was coming out of the overflow pipe onto the ground and the temp was at 110 even with the thermo fans on high.

    I did not get a chance to check the water level as I had to fly out and was not going to pop the lid with it under so much presure.

    After talking to Paul (R6ual), I am now dredding the fact that it is the head gasket which is allowing gases into the cooling system, forcing air pockets to form, pushing the water out of the overflow and preventing effective cooling.

    Are there any tests I can do without talking it to a mechanic? I heard someone mention a 'kit' to test this.

    Not happy
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  13. #13
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    you should be able to grab a test kit from your local spares shop ala autobarn or similar to test your coolant for combustion/exhaust gasses

    i even think i have a head gasket set here for the XU10J4 engine

    i'll check out my parts box
    pretty sure i have a head gasket, rocker cover gasket, inlet gasket, exhaust gasket, and numerous other little ones that go everywhere
    it also includes valve stem seals from memory
    it's the whole head gasket set

    but i'll check my parts bin to make sure
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  14. #14
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    My mechanical ability is fairly limited to monir reparis, though if I was to do the job, Paul would no doubt help me. I hope I get to ask him before he reads this post... if not, I know he likes Rum so that should sweeten the deal.

    I have the Haynes manual, though are any special tools required for the job?

    What would be the cost of the gasket kit?
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  15. #15
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    You really shouldn't need anything too special that most greasemonkey types wouldn't have.
    Sockets, tension wrench general tools etc.
    The only things you may need to check on is if the engine has "stretch" bolts on the head & if so the type of socket needed to remove/replace as on some cits, a Torx head is used and originals are male whilst replacements are female. If stretch bolts they MUST be replaced.
    Cambelt; be sure to grab a Dayco belt & refer to the manual as to what is required for tensioning/setting timing and if they use a spring loaded tensioner or if as with the Xsara, they have had a modification to the tensioner & if so has it been fitted to yours.
    If they use the same locating pins as a BX16V/Mi16 I have aset I can easily post down to you.
    It's a job that may look a bit awesome at first glance but in reality, it's not all that bad. Just do things methodically & in sequence & if you want to be extra safe, take some pics.
    I'll be heading yoor way in the next few days so if you get stuck just holler & if I can make it as part of the big day out, I'll drop in & help where possible.......that's of course providing I don't get lost!! mallet mallet
    If not, just keep posting as I'm sure there's enough knowledge on here to talk you through it between us.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  16. #16
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    ok i found it
    it says on the packet that it's suits citroen-peugeot 92-> XU10J4 16V 1998cc
    you can have it for what it cost me which was $150
    just throw in the postage as well which wouldn't be much and it's yours
    it comes with the camshaft seals, valve stem seals, head gasket, inlet and exhaust gaskets, and a heap of other little 'O' rings and such

    i even have a set of valves here for a 306 16V as well

    approx 29mm ex and 34mm in
    3 x '78 604 SL

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  17. #17
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Sweet. I had all the belts replaced only 2 weeks ago so they will be right. I will play it safe and get new head bolts as the Haynes manual says you have to measure them and if stretched, replace. I don't want to have the head off only to realise I need new head bolts.

    Locating pins, are these those which locate the head in place on the block or hold the cam wheels in the right spot?

    Pugrambo, Sounds like a bargain. It that a Peugeot 'kit' which should have all the replacables for the job? Sounds like it to me.

    Let me first confirm that it is the head gasket and I'll sort payment out.
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  18. #18
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    if you like i'll take some pics of it all for you and put in my yahoo briefcase

    let me know and i''l start snapping
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  19. #19
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Yeah, that would be great.
    B to the R to the A from the D
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  20. #20
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Brad

    pics are up for you
    click <a href="http://au.f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/pugrambo_au" target="_blank">here</a> and go to 306 head gasket set folder
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x secret project

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    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Brad,

    blocked radiator could cause the spikes in your temp as you drive/stop in traffic, when you flushed your radiator, did you notice any crap falling out the bottom hose connector? Taxis change their radiators every 12 months...
    Another problem could be slightly leaking hose when under pressure hence the reason you dont see a puddle when stopped, (as per Chris's suggestion).
    Can you get you system pressure tested for leaks?
    .
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  22. #22
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    The system was pressure tested when it was in for a service. There still could be a blockage in the radiator as I didnt flush it from the top to bottom (really hard to disconnect the bottom pipe), I only flushed from the header tank and out of the input pipe.

    This is why I want to test the water for exhaust gases. BTW, I went to Supercheap and they never heard of such a thing. Does Repco sell these?

    Rambo, is that kit a original thickness kit or a slightly thicker "repair" gasket for use on machined head. You can tell by a "R" stamped adjact number 3 cylinder on the front upper face.
    B to the R to the A from the D
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  23. #23
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    there isn't an "R" stamped on it so i'd say it's original thickness
    from what i have been told they don't shave heads unless they are warped
    what i have been told is that the high spots will be scraped or machined down to machined to match
    so if they take anything off yours at all it won't be much so your comp shouldn't come up or it does it will be minimal

    alan s ???
    you seem to know a little about this i'd say
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  24. #24
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    to make you feel a bit better i put an original thickness back on mine when i had the head off a while ago
    when and if you get it done make sure your lifters are cleaned and primed properly before putting everything back in
    they aren't actually hydraulic lifters as such in the heads but more of a cup with very fine nearly interference fit

    once again alan s ???
    your knowledge is needed
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  25. #25
    Tadpole
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    Just wondering if there's anyone out there that has access to Pug specs for more specific things like combustion gas in the cooling system. Not sure if Pug worries about that sort of thing, but at my work, when we are suspecting head gasket failure on the truck engines, we have a cap-like fitting to go onto the radiator, with a hose attatched. We run the truck under load on our dyno. We get a bucket of water with a graduated bottle. Any combustion gas displaces the water in the bottle. CAT gives a us a spec of max. 500ml in 30 secs under load. Anyone close to a Pug dealership that could get such specs?? Also, inreguards to these test kits, I have head of them, cant rember though if it some chemical u put in the coolant and it changes colour to indicated combustion gas, or little floating blass that when if one floats its aceptable, both sink too much, one sinks and one floats, blah blah blah.. Pugrambo, is that just a VRS kit?? All good if it is.

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