4speed auto or 5 speed manual
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    4speed auto or 5 speed manual

    i have a 1990 505gti s2 wagon fitted with a 5 speed manual gearbox
    i have recently aquired a damaged 1988 505 Gti with a 4 speed auto transmission i was thinkinging of converting the wagon to auto as i have all the nessary parts, but i have heard differing points a view about the auto box
    any thoughts
    will this wreck a lovely car
    also what is more valuable for resale value i have heard that the 5 speed S2 gti wagon was a rare beast?

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  2. #2
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    John,

    Nooooooooooooo.... no auto.. leave it the way it is, much better car and much better re-sale.

    Cheers
    Chris
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  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I could understand it 'tother way..but manual to auto - nah, never.
    I have been told previously that 505s in auto tend to guzzle juice.
    I think you are correct in assuming that manual is rarer than auto in the Pug as most of the original buyers seemed to opt for the auto over the manual whereas on the second hand market, the opposite seems to apply.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    As one of the few people on here with the disability of an auto box in my 505.

    Go the manual. The 3spd auto I have, chews through the Optimax around town but significantly improves on the freeway (but then you get some BIG revs). Maybe the 4spd might be better??

    Don't ask, but I've driven my car with a 4spd Manual box and it ran quite well, much more fun at least.

    My 2 cents

    Jono wink

    Edit: Isn't everyone looking for a 505 manual? If I wasn't so poor after rego I would be...

    <small>[ 13 August 2002, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: crosspug ]</small>
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! James S's Avatar
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    John,

    A topic close to my heart right now - I couldn't resist replying to your message so I registered for the first time just now to have my say. I would keep the 5 speed in the GTi if it were my car, unless of course you absolutely love the car and can't drive a manual due to medical conditions etc.

    I have an 87 505 SLi 8 seater wagon with a 3 speed auto so not as good as the 4 speed auto but it's still an auto. It has no reverse or drive at the moment and my options are to fix the auto or put a manual in (4 or 5 speed). By the way, I've e-mailed Dave McBean and he's given me some valuable advice. So far I've done some research only but am intending to get the Peugeot Association guys here in Canberra to do the work for me as I just have no time or space to do it myself right now. I am aiming to put a 5 speed in if I can get one and the price is OK. Does anyone have a decent BA7/5 lying around???? I believe these boxes will fit with a little work (bellhousing and input shaft swap with 504 ones).

    The 5 speed boxes are hard to get (especially for wagons) and are expensive from wreckers. GTi manual wagons (8 seater) are still advertised for $9K plus. Auto GTi wagons are probably priced similarly I guess? I saw a manual one for $12K somewhere (Trading Post?) recently. I got the Sli for a LOT less but of course it only has the 2L motor and has an auto which is stuffed. If it was a 5 speed manual, I suspect I would have had to pay a lot more. The manual has got to be way better than the auto in terms of performance and fuel efficiency. I have two 4 speed manual 504's which have much more go than the 505 Sli - I know, the auto's busted so not that good a comparison, but the 505 Sli has to be the most gutless car I have ever driven (except perhaps for my 504 3 speed auto that I owned a while back!). The manual will have to fix that. I am sure a GTi motor would also help but that isn't an option just yet.

    So, that's my story and opinion - don't know if it helps. Hey, I'll even get the auto in the Sli fixed and trade it with your GTi if you really want an auto!!! I guess it'll take you all of 2 seconds to decline that offer.

    James S

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Oh god

    Do not change it to auto. Peugeot's just aren't Auto cars. In France I think it's something like only 15% are autos. Shows you just how the French people believe they should be driven.

    Add to that the fact Peugeot use pretty half rate autos.

    I can understand autos on big German sedans, with 6/8 cylinder engines, but an old French 4cylinder, has to be manual

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Jason Morris's Avatar
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    Does the 5-speed still work ?! If so surely follow the "if it works well leave it alone: principle !! They are rare over here, most late 505's sold were auto. I have an '89 505 8-seater with the ZF 4sp auto box, and although it is an 'old-style' non-electronic controlled box, it is nice and responsive to drive. The lock-up on top above 80kmh is great for economy on a trip, and top also seems to be very high geared (always felt the 504 3sp was screaming at 60mph). The ZF4HP22 box in question was also used on BMW's up to 3500cc, Jags/daimlers and range rovers to 4L, so it should be reasonably long lasting when coupled to a (ahem, struggling to churn out much over 100hp, esp when pinking) Peugeot 4-cyl engine ! If only it were easy to couple the 4-sp auto to the V6......

    Jason

  8. #8
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    James S

    I am about to do a BA10/5 conversion into a 504 wagon and will be making a rear mount to suit.

    If your engine is a slogger (iron block, XN etc), get one of these boxes and go through the exercise with me... I will be making a new gearbox mount to suit which will be adaptable to the 505, no doubt... or can be made to suit the 505, and you eliminate a number of your problems.

    Otherwise, just stick in a 4-speed.

    e.mail me on [email protected] if you want...

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! James S's Avatar
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    Hi Ray,

    It's great to know someone else is going through a similar thing.

    I have been told that the BA10/5 won't fit into the 505SLi as the tunnel is too small - and the rear mount is different as you say. I suppose the tunnel could be enlarged with a bit of planning and some metal work - probably not too hard? The engine is the 2L XN? type with injection - runs unleaded though. It isn't the 2.2L.

    I am going to get one of the Peugeot Association guys in Canberra to look at the car tomorrow to assess my options. I can still drive it in 2nd! I would love to work through the process with you but think that my time and space is too limited to do the work myself this time around (I have 2 Lancia Betas in my garage in different states of repair and a wife that wants the 505 on the road ASAP!) i.e I have to pay someone to do it unfortunately even though I typically do my own work.

    I'll e-mail you anyway and let you know what we end up deciding to do. I have thought of the 4 speed as a 'quick' fix and prefer to look at the 5 speed as the real solution.

    Regard,
    James

  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Well, if you need a lend of a 4-speed and a floorchange to suit in the meantime, it's here for you.

    I don't think the tunnel is an issue, but I could be proved wrong.

    I have two BA10/5s and two 504 wagons to fit them to...

  11. #11
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    I have a 505GTI S2 with 4sp. auto. Compared to a 504 auto which I bought new (silly idea!) it is a vast improvement and goes OK for a French automatic. That said it is not a patch on the 505 5 sp. which preceded it, especially up hills.
    So - go for the 5sp. My auto. uses about 20% more petrol too.

    After the STI the GTI has been a great disappointment. The wonderful absorbent ride has been destroyed, and even the seats are so Germanic i.e. Hard and uncomfortable. True it has less body roll and probably more ultimate adhesion, but the STI handled well enough for me. I have seriously thought of fitting STI springs!

    If anyone needs the rear housing of a 504 s/w gearbox (can adapt 404 to floor change) let me know. This MAY be usable with a 505 box?

  12. #12
    nJm
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    Its interesting to see your comments on the GTi.

    The only experiences I have in 505's are my GR sedan, a SR wagon and a S1 GTi Executive.

    Does the STI have suspension somewhere inbetween the GR and the GTi? I always assumed the STi and GTi had the same setup.

    I know I certainly prefer my absorbant ride to that in the GTi, although I do envy its ability to stay flat in a corner. I have though about fitting thicker anti-sway bars front and rear.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    After having both cars...a GR and a GTI I would have to say the GTI is 10000x times the car of the GR.

    I find the seats to be much better, they handle better, look smarter...and are generally a better car...

    Just my opinion !

    Ben
    1989 Peugeot 405 Mi16
    1990 Peugeot 505 GTD Turbo Wagon
    2000 Peugeot 306 XSI
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  14. #14
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    it all comes down to what you want in a car
    for flatter cornering the ride is bound to suffer
    the classic example of this was at the peugoet pageant held in dubbo where there was a 306XT sedan and my GTi6
    as we travelled down this short stretch of dirt road to a tourist detination it was amazing to see how the XT rode the holes and humps so easily where as i had to take it easy to prevent throwing the occupants of the car around but on the open road the GTi really left the XT behind in road holding ability
    i have found that the 505 GTi is quite a soft ride compared to my 306. in saying this though the 505 handles very well for a car of that era
    some peolpe like a soft bump absorbing ride and will forego some handling where as others like to have handling over ride
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    tresbon:
    If anyone needs the rear housing of a 504 s/w gearbox (can adapt 404 to floor change) let me know. This MAY be usable with a 505 box?
    No.. no... the 5th gear is inside that housing in the 505 box... it's altogether different.

    Not sure, either, but I think there are two different rear housings. At least there are two different floor changes in the 504 wagon... not sure when they changed but my 79 had the old one with the long lever, the 82 has the stubby lever.

  16. #16
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Ray
    did your 79 have the second rear seat ?
    was it an imported wagon ?
    from the wagons i have seen only the wagon without 2nd rear seat and imported ones (which were early wagons) had the long gear lever
    all the aussie spec wagons i have seen have the 2nd rear seat and stubby lever
    Dave might be about to clarify this as i haven't had that much to do with the wagons only played with mainly sedans and the odd wagon
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Yes, it was the Familiale... as are both the 82 models with the stubby lever.

    My 76 Wagon has the long lever too... it's not a Familiale.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi there,
    I replied to a similar topic in this forum recently re 505 transmissions. Just to summarise my experiences:

    We have both a 1984 STI Exec 5 speed, and a 1986 GTI S2 3 speed auto. The economy of the STI remains quite consistent, with 700 km per tank no problems with highway driving. The manual is also a much more enjoyable car on the open road, and is well suited to towing our box trailer with a ton of wood etc. The ride of the STI, seating comfort etc is very Peugeot (legendary).

    The GTI S2 auto can be quite thirsty with town driving, returning less than 20 mpg if stop / start conditions prevail. It is well tuned I might add. On the open highway, however, the economy is as good as the 5 speed manual STI, as cruise RPM's are almost identical at 100-120 km/hr. Therefore 700 km per tank can be expected. The Series 2 ride is more choppy than the STI, and you can expect to feel most medium to large road bumps. The advantage, of course, is superb handling that seems to defy most limits. The seats are comparable to the STI. I also run Optimax in the GTI, and in the STI on trips.

    The 4 speed auto is only advantageous as a highway transmission, with the lock-up in 4th giving lower RPM's at highway speeds. This improves the economy, reduces road noise etc.

    To convert from the 3 speed auto to a 4 speed, you also need to replace the torque tube assy, as the 4 speed transmission casing is longer than the 3 speed.

    I also have considered the manual option for the GTI, but experience has told me that an overhaul of the 5 speed would be adviseable beforehand, as they are prone to worn & noisy bearings at high mileages. The clutch assembly though, seems to last forever.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    After the STI the GTI has been a great disappointment. The wonderful absorbent ride has been destroyed, and even the seats are so Germanic i.e. Hard and uncomfortable. True it has less body roll and probably more ultimate adhesion, but the STI handled well enough for me. I have seriously thought of fitting STI springs!
    When I was test-driving a S2 505GTI, I noticed that the seats and the ride were quite firm. I believe my S1 505GTI is softer, but I've yet to experience the STI. Sure the handling is great, but I wouldn't mind softening things up more.

    The other day I was driving along Balaclava Rd in Caulfield Nth where the concrete between the tram tracks is slightly corrugated. Doing 60kmh, I thought the car was about to fall apart since everything was vibrating so badly! Similar thing happened going up Mt Buller at 40kmh with snow chains.

    I was thinking of getting 65 profile tyres when my current 60s wear down, and I guess the STI springs are another option...

    Richard

    <small>[ 19 August 2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: silverexec ]</small>
    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
    25 GTX '86
    - manual conversion

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! James S's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Following on from my response to Ray Bell late last week about fiting a manual box to my auto 505SLi 8 seater wagon - I took the car to a very knowledgable Caneberra Peugeot Association guy on Saturday. We chatted for a while about the pros and cons of a 4 speed vs 5 speed. I am going to go for the 4 speed now.

    The 5 speed BA7/5's generally need overhauling before fitting and aren't as robust as the 4 speeds. The 4 speed are easily available and are cheap. 5 speeds aren't either of these things and I am going for higher reliability and lowest cost at this stage. Maybe I'll fit a 5 speed in the future.

    So, thanks Ray for the offer to work through it with you but I am going to get most of the work done. Also thanks a lot for the offer to let me borrow the 4 speed box in the interim but there are plenty of these around in Canberra so won't need yours.

    However, please keep us informed on how the BA10/5 conversion into the 504 wagon goes. I might consider doing this at some stage with my 504 wagon.

    On 504 wagons - I have a 1980 7 seater (actually a previous owner has fitted an 8th seatbelt but it is still a 7 seater) with a short gearshift. I previously owned a 1976 5 seater wagon with a long gearshit so that fits in with the descriptions given above.

    James

  21. #21
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    So do you need the gearchange bits?

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! James S's Avatar
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    Thanks Ray - I think I may have found a shift mechanism in Canberra but need to confirm this. It is from a 504 wagon - hopefully it is the shorter style. I'll bear in mind that you have one and will let you know later in the week if I need yours.

    Thanks,
    James

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Regarding STI springs. Up to about 1984 the STI springs are the same as GR/SR springs, but I think some 85 model STI springs might be the same as series 1 GTI springs.

    Having tried both 195/60 tyres and 195/65 tyres, I think the 60 series tyres are more responsible for the loss of ride quality in the GTI versus the STI, than the springs.

    The GTI springs although stiffer than other Pug springs, are still soft when compared with "soft" springs made by other manufacturers. The GTI front spring rate of about 85lbs/in is softer than almost any other non-Peugeot spring, including those fitted to sub-1000kg economy cars. The rear springs are 254lbs/in, which is a fairly average spring rate for rear springs on other medium sedans.

    Dave

  24. #24
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Taking into account leverage, David?

    Spring rates on struts are easy to compare, but when it comes to rear suspensions there are other factors... if you see what I mean.

    James, it's here if you need it, I'm away for five days, but I'll be back Sunday. I'm on 0411 280 267 if you need anything.

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Ray Bell:
    Taking into account leverage, David?

    Spring rates on struts are easy to compare, but when it comes to rear suspensions there are other factors... if you see what I mean.

    James, it's here if you need it, I'm away for five days, but I'll be back Sunday. I'm on 0411 280 267 if you need anything.
    Ray,

    Yeah, I know what you mean, the back wheel rates could be harder than other cars although they don't feel too bad to me, and I find alot of other cars too stiff.

    I've seen the wheel rate figures for the 505 turbo/GTI and even then the front rates seem low when compared with those of a 900kg Ford Escort.

    Dave

    <small>[ 19 August 2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>

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