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Thread: 404 gear box

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 404 gear box

    Hi All,

    I've a couple of questions relating to a '69 404 gearbox.

    Firstly - can anyone give me a rough idea of what it may cost to get a good second-hand BA7 box?

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    Secondly - I have a BA7 box that I salvaged from a 504 but have no idea if it is any better than the one I am replacing. Can anyone a have guess at how much it may cost to have a box fitted? I'd have a go at fitting it myself but I don't have the tools or workshop.

    Lastly - should I be replacing a BA7 with another BA7 or would it be better to replace it with another box? (in your opinions).

    Your opinions and experience are greatly appreciated.

    Cheers,

    Matt.

  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    To put a 504 box into a 404, you only need change the rear housing... they are both BA7s. There's no simple alternative, but if you really wanted to put an overdrive box in you could put the C2 (403) box in there using the flywheel and clutch from an earlier 404 (pre-'68), but it would mean changing the clutch to mechanical and would be fiddly.

    There are only minor changes between the boxes, so it's no problem. Putting the box in is another issue. Paying someone to do it would be a problem.

    Methods could be engine out, box out, box in engine in... about six hours for an experienced operator. Maybe less.

    Or... drop rear end, lower crossmember, box out, box in, replace rear end. An uglier job, but maybe a tad quicker.

    I'd prefer to do it the first way myself, I think.

    I have one really good late model 404 box, but it's at Harden. How urgent is this?

  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    live axle car 50/50 between engine out or dropping rear end

    i'd drop the rear end and have it done in a fairly short time

    rears ends in live axle cars are so easy compared to IRS car
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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Phil Whitton's Avatar
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    I'll vouce for that. tried both ways and the rear end out is quicker and cleaner. Gives you a chance to replace the rear shocky rubbers as well.
    Bon chance

  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    As I've done an engine 'out and in' in under two hours, I guess I have to plump for the method where you don't spend the whole time lying on your back...

    Given a well laid out workshop, I reckon I could do it through the front go to whoa in three hours.

  6. #6
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    if he takes it to a workshop they will have a hoist

    they will take it out underneath and if they are worth their salt will do it in less time than it will take to do an engine out

    i'll be doing a bit of this very shortly when i pick up my 403 ute if it isn't too badly rusted, so long as it's only broken in the back like most of them and a little rust it should be a good project
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    It would be a lot harder to do that with a rusty old ute...

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! Phil Whitton's Avatar
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    Default is there a challenge in this?

    Pugrambo & Ray, I have a 404 ute (rusty) that you can practice on and maybe a challenge in timing the quickest way for the swap.
    I prefer the back end out so you don't have to get at the exhaust manifold, fuel lines, control cables etc.
    Just handbrake cable and the gearbox cover plates. The clutch cylinder stays connected just slips out. (But the last three gearbox jobs started with the oxy removing the body in bits for recycling, keeping the running gear together till the end.)
    Thats my 2p worth.

    bon chance

    phil

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Interested

    I picked up a 404 wagon a couple of weeks ago so reading this with interest.

    The engine is sad with exess blow back and although clutch and gearbox reconditioned a short time ago second gear is very noisy. Apparently the second gear was taken from a box that had water in it. Is this a problem or something that you live with?

    Car is licenced and drives ok with one stuffed shock front drivers side.

    It appears in this case that it would be worth doing the gear box when engine comes out. There is no hurry with this as I will be storing the car until parts come up at the right time.

    Graelin

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graelin
    I picked up a 404 wagon a couple of weeks ago so reading this with interest.

    The engine is sad with exess blow back and although clutch and gearbox reconditioned a short time ago second gear is very noisy. Apparently the second gear was taken from a box that had water in it. Is this a problem or something that you live with?

    Car is licenced and drives ok with one stuffed shock front drivers side.

    It appears in this case that it would be worth doing the gear box when engine comes out. There is no hurry with this as I will be storing the car until parts come up at the right time.

    Graelin
    I have a recently freshened up (rings and bearings with crank clean out etc.) 1600 short motor if you are interested. Done around 50km with hot cam and head before deciding the set up didn't work!
    With standard head and cam it will be fine.
    Graham

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 404 Station Wagon Jack

    Thanks for Pm Graham.

    Is there any place the standard jack is supposed to fit?

    It is dangerous having it lying in the rear compartment of Station Wagon.

    Have tried under seat but doesnt seem to be the place, I noticed a panel that has screws on the floor immediately behind rear seat is this of any use?

    Thanks

    Graelin

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graelin
    Thanks for Pm Graham.

    Is there any place the standard jack is supposed to fit?

    It is dangerous having it lying in the rear compartment of Station Wagon.

    Have tried under seat but doesnt seem to be the place, I noticed a panel that has screws on the floor immediately behind rear seat is this of any use?

    Thanks

    Graelin
    Sorry, I haven't owned a wagon.
    Graham

  13. #13
    Tadpole
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    Default Thanks for 404 help

    Hi All,

    Thanks for your replies re. my 404 gearbox. I have a much better idea of what I may be up for now.

    Ray thanks for the offer of your 404 box. Mine is not an urgent job so if I can't find a good one locally I may take you up on your offer. Any thoughts on how much you'd want for it?

    I'm sure I will be back asking some more pesky questions as I have quite a lot to do on my '69 - but I'm determined - I will have it on the road in daily use soon.

    Cheers,

    Matt.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 404 trip

    Well my $200-00 licenced 404 wagon made the trip to our property app 100kms ok yesterday.

    It is now undercover and fishoiled where required. Found their is rust in front cross member and that is uses a sumpfull of oil to get there! I bought it knowing the engine was u/s but running.

    My 10 yo and 12yo girls can now drive it in the paddock and they were rapt in learning how to drive.

    Very impressed on how well it acually drove cruises at 6o mph ok but not much acceleration at that speed. Does a good engine accelerate positivly at this speed for overtaking? Or is that expecting to much of the 1600cc?

    Sits on road well, and has 4 near new tyres, recon cylinder head new waterpump, recond gearbox and clutch although as prev mentioned 2nd gear is noisy.

    Well we had a great time with the kids and then drove back home in the 406.

    I have some pic of it but unable to work out how to attach them to this.

    Graelin

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graelin
    Well my $200-00 licenced 404 wagon made the trip to our property app 100kms ok yesterday.

    It is now undercover and fishoiled where required. Found their is rust in front cross member and that is uses a sumpfull of oil to get there! I bought it knowing the engine was u/s but running.

    My 10 yo and 12yo girls can now drive it in the paddock and they were rapt in learning how to drive.

    Very impressed on how well it acually drove cruises at 6o mph ok but not much acceleration at that speed. Does a good engine accelerate positivly at this speed for overtaking? Or is that expecting to much of the 1600cc?

    Sits on road well, and has 4 near new tyres, recon cylinder head new waterpump, recond gearbox and clutch although as prev mentioned 2nd gear is noisy.

    Well we had a great time with the kids and then drove back home in the 406.

    I have some pic of it but unable to work out how to attach them to this.

    Graelin
    A good one will have plenty of acceleration at 100km/h. You should be able to feel it push you back in the seat, the mid range power of these engines is remarkable, they feel even better than the 2litre when they are in their power band.
    The secret seems to be to get the carby working properly (clean?) , it is worth buying a new distributor as well.
    Graham

  16. #16
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    Default Thanks Graham

    This car has a weber instead of standard carb and it does not need much choke to start. The engine is bad the tail gate is covered in fresh oil!

    Not worth investing in much in this engine until I decide which way to go with this.

    I kind of started out going to buy a wheelbarrow to move the rocks off the paddock and ended up with this!!

    The owner was going to send it to the wreckers but did not want to see this happen to it. It is all complete and the wife was in tears about selling it (Mine was in tears about me buying it!!) she had driven it for twenty years and they do not like the new Holden.

    The other main area of rust is around the windscreen, it is full of bog there.

    Graelin

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graelin
    This car has a weber instead of standard carb and it does not need much choke to start. The engine is bad the tail gate is covered in fresh oil!

    Not worth investing in much in this engine until I decide which way to go with this.

    I kind of started out going to buy a wheelbarrow to move the rocks off the paddock and ended up with this!!

    The owner was going to send it to the wreckers but did not want to see this happen to it. It is all complete and the wife was in tears about selling it (Mine was in tears about me buying it!!) she had driven it for twenty years and they do not like the new Holden.

    The other main area of rust is around the windscreen, it is full of bog there.

    Graelin
    Is it a twin throat weber?
    May be a 2 litre engine.
    Graham

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 404 gearbox.

    Graelin,
    Weber carb ?. It looks like it may have a 2 litre [504] engine. Check all the engine breathers, the gauzes in the oil filler tube and cap. Also the small hose and nipple on the manifold, make sure they aren't clogged. Check the air filter. Don't dismiss these items they are important.
    The oil consumption does seem high even if the above are dodgey.

    There are a few gearboxes, later models at the Club container, condition unknown. If it's only going to be used around the homestead and for short runs don't worry about it. Oh! has the box got any oil in it?

  19. #19
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    As I've done an engine 'out and in' in under two hours, I guess I have to plump for the method where you don't spend the whole time lying on your back...

    Given a well laid out workshop, I reckon I could do it through the front go to whoa in three hours.
    That's nothing. I did an engine out, old clutch off, new clutch on, engine in again in record time on an 1800cc 504.
    45 minutes from drive into the garage to drive out. They are incredibly easy to work on.
    Worst job on a Pug sofar - rear main oil seal on a 405 with an auto tranny.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

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    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

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  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 1600

    It is the 1600 and I have receipt of the weber conversion also receipts for every cent spent on it for last twenty years.

    Was serviced locally and it even has original delivery records in dash.

    Thanks for the advice one of the club members versed in 404 has looked at the car and one cylinder is dodgy.

    It does go which is good for the meantime but if I use it on the road will need to be repaired.

    WB I cant answer your question re oil in box other than it has been serviced regularly and was in daily use until last 6 months due to the roadworks on Freeway became a bit tough 40 mins stop go etc.

    At this stage work is full on which restricts fiddling time so at least it is out of the weather and protected.

    Aways had a liking for the 404 last time I drove one was 30 yrs ago!

    Graelin

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graelin
    It is the 1600 and I have receipt of the weber conversion also receipts for every cent spent on it for last twenty years.

    Was serviced locally and it even has original delivery records in dash.

    Thanks for the advice one of the club members versed in 404 has looked at the car and one cylinder is dodgy.

    It does go which is good for the meantime but if I use it on the road will need to be repaired.

    WB I cant answer your question re oil in box other than it has been serviced regularly and was in daily use until last 6 months due to the roadworks on Freeway became a bit tough 40 mins stop go etc.

    At this stage work is full on which restricts fiddling time so at least it is out of the weather and protected.

    Aways had a liking for the 404 last time I drove one was 30 yrs ago!

    Graelin
    Be wary of the single choke weber conversion for 404. Bigh tried for months to get his running properly before going back to the standard Solex.
    His carby had a 27mm choke tube (same as 1800, the 404 has a 26mm tube) and only went when revved right out. Mixture was OK on the dyno.
    Graham

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 404 and the time clock ?

    What is it with you heroes, engine out, clutch repl and back in 3 hours. 2 hours and now 45minutes??
    What's the rush? Unless you are at a service stop somewhere in East Africa why bust your gut?
    Not doubting these times aren't achievable with the use of a workshop hoist and engine lift. Crawling around on the floor I doubt that.*
    With these jobs I have used the occasion to give the engine a good degrease and the same around the engine bay etc. It becomes less stressfull if you take your time, the occasional cuppa. makes for a pleasant day at home with not a time clock in sight.

    Here's another oldie. "There are only two types of people who make money lying on their backs. Prostitutes and motor mechanics"

  23. #23
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    In my case, I used to be happy to do the job in four hours... but once I did the changeover (engine from wreck into work 404 wagon) and found the clutch didn't adjust with the combination of finger heights and the rod on that car.

    Everything was in place, only the bonnet wasn't done up. Front of the car up on ramps, the grass underneath was fairly short, it wasn't too hot out in the sun that day, I had the piece of 3 x 2 I used for levering the engine back in while I juggled it to get the spigot in. Naturally, I hadn't yet pulled down the tripod (6 x torque tubes, chained together at the top) or the comealong winch.

    And I had to get to work that day... or else!

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