big problem with 306 HDI :(
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default big problem with 306 HDI :(

    Hey there,

    I'm new here, so "g'day" to you all

    I know you lot have your peugoets in Australia, but I don't recollect anybody having HDI engines in their Peugeots. Anyhow, I have a serious (well I hope not, but is sounding like it) problem on my hands.

    I hope someone out here will be able to shed some light on my situation

    What happened was my girlfriends dad and I changed the waterpump on my car, everything went well, taking the cambelt cover panels off, supporting the engine on a jack with wheel ramps underneath the subframe as extra support and precaution, put a draper locking tool thing in to the flywheel and locked it with a bolt. Then inserted pins in to the camshaft drive sproket, so all the usual precautions taken to make sure the shafts did not move.

    Then we undone with great difficulty was the crankshaft pulley bolt, but before doing so we put the car in 5th gear so help prevent the whole lot moving. After the bolt was undone, pulley was remove marking-up where everything should be put back with some chalk, removed aux. belt.

    After doing the above we removed the timing belt whilst being very careful not to move any of the sprokets. We made sure we found and mated up the white bit of paint of the sproket with the little bit of white paint parallel on the engine block.

    We drained the system of water for a few hours.

    Changed the water pump easily, secured all back properly with gasket sealent, then proceded to put the old cambelt (only done 3000miles on it) back on, measuring the tension by turning the belt 45 degrees on the longest run, and then securing the tensioner.

    Next we cleaned the camshaft pullet bolt, and applied some loctite threading compound, we then put the pulley back on properly with and tightened the bolt to the specified torque.

    We then fitted a new aux. belt as old one had some fine cracks, placed all cambelt panels back up, put new antifreeze in radiator with enough water.

    After doing this, we secured all the rest (engine mounts, wheel etc) and the went on the road with it. Carried 3 bottles of water. Went up the road, all was fine and the temparature increased at a fast rate, pull over, engine off, filled up with water, fans were kicking in for a while, went along, warning light came on for low water, filled up with more water, and then all seemed fine.

    We let the car idle for 25-30mins, making sure the fans kicked in when up to around 95-100 degrees (we let it do that twice).

    So all was fine that night, car working properly, pulling through gears fine, turbo spinning up normally.

    The problem today was in the morning, started her up, was a strange 'clattering', went down the road a bit more, and this clattering became worse with the engine shaking violently.

    Was soo worried about this, I got the car towed home by greenflag.

    We have re-checked everything was aligned as we took the parts off again, we just can't work out why its doing this?!

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    I've got some questions about this:

    What is the significance of the little embossed markings on the camshaft pulley, which looks like this:

    \ . /

    Does the fuel pump, which is has a sproket, require timing?
    Autodata states that it doesn't. Also, on the fuel pump sproket, what is the significance of the embossed 'capsule' shape?

    I know this post is very long winded, I just wanted to make sure whoever reads this knows what has been done.

    Please, can anybody help???

    Thanks for any replies,

    Paul

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul_hdi
    Does the fuel pump, which is has a sproket, require timing?
    Autodata states that it doesn't. Also, on the fuel pump sproket, what is the significance of the embossed 'capsule' shape?


    Thanks for any replies,
    Paul

    In short, yes the fuel pump is part of the critical timing set up. You locked the crankshaft, and camshaft pulleys but there is a pair of bolt holes to lock the pump timing as well. White smoke would indicate bad pump timing or the car simply not starting as the fuel is being sent to the injectors at the wrong time in the cycle.

    Have you checked the engine mounts? possibly the extra strain on them in moving the engine has seen one meet its use by date.
    Neil
    '94 405 SRBT

    '82 CX 2400 Pallas 5spd

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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! tassiediesel's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cruiserman
    In short, yes the fuel pump is part of the critical timing set up. You locked the crankshaft, and camshaft pulleys but there is a pair of bolt holes to lock the pump timing as well. White smoke would indicate bad pump timing or the car simply not starting as the fuel is being sent to the injectors at the wrong time in the cycle.

    Have you checked the engine mounts? possibly the extra strain on them in moving the engine has seen one meet its use by date.
    Cruiserman speaks the truth! I can only add from my experience of Golf diesels but you must lock the injection pump before you touch the timing belt. I'm on shaky ground here as I have only dealt with mechanical injection but even a tooth out can make an enormous difference to the start of injection. White smoke and clattering indicates retarded timing. You really have to get it spot on with diesels as they are absolutely unforgiving.
    82 Peugeot 505 Turbo Diesel
    78 VW Golf diesel
    80 VW Golf diesel
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  4. #4
    Tadpole
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    Default

    Hi all,

    thanks for replying

    The problem is that the HDI's fuel pump is electronic, and I have read from 2 of my sources now that the pump does not require timing, and this is further proven as the pump's sproket doesn't have and timing indication or locking holes.

    It can't require timing, or can it?

  5. #5
    Tadpole
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    Hey people,

    right I've recorded a sound clip of the car running.

    The sound clip entails the car idling, the slightly faster, and the near the engine revving a touch, and then we stopped the engine.

    http://www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/carnoise.mp3

    let me know what you think,

    cheers,

    Paul

  6. #6
    Tadpole
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    Just thought I'd add that there wasn't any strange smoke coming out of the exhaust, just the normal 'invisable' smell,

    cheers,

    Paul

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! tassiediesel's Avatar
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    Default Small knowledge base!

    Quote Originally Posted by paul_hdi
    Just thought I'd add that there wasn't any strange smoke coming out of the exhaust, just the normal 'invisable' smell,

    cheers,

    Paul
    Sorry, Paul. Our experience with modern common rail diesels is a bit thin. My training as a diesel fitter was in Newcastle upon Tyne in the '60s. Gardner and Perkins engines are a far cry from Mr Peugeot's HDi's! Diesels that I have owned and loved since then have all been mechanical injection (I should have read your post more carefully).
    From my understanding common rail diesels are fed by a high pressure pump with the fuel being supplied to the injectors constantly and the point of injection is controlled by a computer. Can't see how the work that you did could have affected the timing. You said hat you were careful to set the crank so that the pistons were at TDC and that you locked the camshaft and crankshaft? I think that you would have known by now if you had the valve timing wrong, but I would revisit the belt tension. When fitting a new belt to VW diesels the amount of movement in the top run is crucial, and I can't see how it can be different in the pug. VW have a "special tool" the measure the amount of depression.
    This is really all that I can think of. I guess if the belt tension is right you may have to take the car ro a dealer. (Ouch!)
    82 Peugeot 505 Turbo Diesel
    78 VW Golf diesel
    80 VW Golf diesel
    84 Nissan Patrol MQ diesel

  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by tassie505gti
    Sorry, Paul. Our experience with modern common rail diesels is a bit thin. My training as a diesel fitter was in Newcastle upon Tyne in the '60s. Gardner and Perkins engines are a far cry from Mr Peugeot's HDi's! Diesels that I have owned and loved since then have all been mechanical injection (I should have read your post more carefully).
    From my understanding common rail diesels are fed by a high pressure pump with the fuel being supplied to the injectors constantly and the point of injection is controlled by a computer. Can't see how the work that you did could have affected the timing. You said hat you were careful to set the crank so that the pistons were at TDC and that you locked the camshaft and crankshaft? I think that you would have known by now if you had the valve timing wrong, but I would revisit the belt tension. When fitting a new belt to VW diesels the amount of movement in the top run is crucial, and I can't see how it can be different in the pug. VW have a "special tool" the measure the amount of depression.
    This is really all that I can think of. I guess if the belt tension is right you may have to take the car ro a dealer. (Ouch!)

    Thanks for your help people,

    still haven't sorted it, am preparing myself for the worst

    check out the sound of my engine:

    http://www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee04pac/personal/carnoise.mp3

    cheers,

    Paul

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    either pump timing is way out or you have a few bent valves in there

    doesn't sound good that's for sure
    3 x '78 604 SL

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  10. #10
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    either pump timing is way out or you have a few bent valves in there

    doesn't sound good that's for sure
    Hey people,

    I have confirmed my worse fears, by taking the cam cover off,

    please feel free to comment on what further damaged could be been caused by the breakeage of this part,

    Again, many thanks to all of those who have offered advice and replied to my posts.

    Ironically I filled in some online forms for reconditioned engines, so lets see...

    Pictures below(3):





    cheers,

    Paul

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    ouch

    i feel bad now i mentioned a valve problem
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! tassiediesel's Avatar
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    Default Me too, 'Rambo

    What happened was my girlfriends dad and I changed the waterpump on my car, everything went well, taking the cambelt cover panels off, supporting the engine on a jack with wheel ramps underneath the subframe as extra support and precaution, put a draper locking tool thing in to the flywheel and locked it with a bolt. Then inserted pins in to the camshaft drive sproket, so all the usual precautions taken to make sure the shafts did not move.
    All of these efforts should have held everything in its proper place. Later you said that you "Put it in 5th gear..." This could be the source of the damage. If you moved the crank even slightly it would have a multipier effect at the camshaft. Expensive mistake but fixable even without a recon. engine. Sorry to hear of your demise.
    82 Peugeot 505 Turbo Diesel
    78 VW Golf diesel
    80 VW Golf diesel
    84 Nissan Patrol MQ diesel

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tassie505gti
    All of these efforts should have held everything in its proper place. Later you said that you "Put it in 5th gear..." This could be the source of the damage. If you moved the crank even slightly it would have a multipier effect at the camshaft. Expensive mistake but fixable even without a recon. engine. Sorry to hear of your demise.
    Must say I read that bit with a little trepidation, I did it by putting into 1st gear, having my eldest son sit with his foot on the brake cracked the bolt and then locked everything in place so that any movement was in time with each other. Sorry to see the sad state but a recon motor is an expensive way to fix it. I got a wreck from pickles and transplanted the entire subframe when I did the 405.
    Neil
    '94 405 SRBT

    '82 CX 2400 Pallas 5spd

    '77 CX 2400 Pallas 4spd manual Import

    '76 CX Super

    '05 WL Statesman

    '92 HZJ80 Landcruiser

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