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  1. #1
    MrV
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    Icon4 Oil leak surprise

    just got back from the mechanics.... was getting a minor leak in the sump fixed... needed replacement sump gasket

    the mechanic proceeds to tell me that there was in fact no gasket on there in the first place he said there was some 'blue stuff' that he had to scrape off....

    whats with that? any guesses as to what the blue stuff was?

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrV
    just got back from the mechanics.... was getting a minor leak in the sump fixed... needed replacement sump gasket

    the mechanic proceeds to tell me that there was in fact no gasket on there in the first place he said there was some 'blue stuff' that he had to scrape off....

    whats with that? any guesses as to what the blue stuff was?

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    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrV
    just got back from the mechanics.... was getting a minor leak in the sump fixed... needed replacement sump gasket

    the mechanic proceeds to tell me that there was in fact no gasket on there in the first place he said there was some 'blue stuff' that he had to scrape off....

    whats with that? any guesses as to what the blue stuff was?


    In the UK we call it instant gasket and most of it is silicone based.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MrV
    .....any guesses as to what the blue stuff was?
    Silicon RTV gasket material comes in white, orange, black and blue, probably others as well. It really will do the job well if it's applied properly. Hylemar (sp?) is also blue, best used only on machined joints.

    'Silastic' is the brand name used by Dow Corning for their RTV automotive product range. Because they hit the market hardest in the beginnings of the RTV material's life, their name got adopted. Just like 'Hoover' is used universally in Britain instead of 'vacuum cleaner'... and 'Esky' in Australia instead of whatever you'd describe an Esky as being. 'Esky' is the brand made by Willow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrV
    just got back from the mechanics.... was getting a minor leak in the sump fixed... needed replacement sump gasket

    the mechanic proceeds to tell me that there was in fact no gasket on there in the first place he said there was some 'blue stuff' that he had to scrape off....

    whats with that? any guesses as to what the blue stuff was?
    I have recently used a product of Loctite called "Blue Maxx" silicone sealer to overhaul a "gasketless" manual transmission. If I remember correctly it had higher temperature applicability than other products and thats why I chose it. These good quality sealants can seal a gap of 2-3mm and are extensively used to replace gaskets on sumps, timing covers, etc, where the thickness of the gasket is not critical (eg, doesnt affect a bearing clearance). On the "gasketless" trans it does control the bearing clearances better than a gasket between two machined surfaces, but it is the factory original method of design. It is not a problem if applied correctly to replace an original gasket - possibly better than original.

    This "Blue Maxx" was a bright light blue. Hylomar as mentioned in above post is a darker "royal" blue - also a good product.

    Cheers
    Fordman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrV
    just got back from the mechanics.... was getting a minor leak in the sump fixed... needed replacement sump gasket

    the mechanic proceeds to tell me that there was in fact no gasket on there in the first place he said there was some 'blue stuff' that he had to scrape off....

    whats with that? any guesses as to what the blue stuff was?
    At the time your 405 was put together, Peugeot used a Loctite sealent to seal the sump to the bottom of the engine, There was no gasket.

    Because of all the problems people where having with oil leaks from the failing of this sealent Peugeot now list a rubber sump gasket to fix this leaking problem.
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Looks like you need to print out this thread and show it to the mechanic...

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    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    I have seen many a disaster where the dreaded GOOO has been used to cover for shear laziness.
    When using the these sealants there is usually an excess, (the dodgier the repair the greater the excess). This excess can, (I have observed this), become detached and sucked into and through the oil pump, (or just travel along the gallery), and get stuck in an internal oil feeder, (eg a lifter or gallery to a cam). The resultant lubricant starvation to the affected part is usually terminal.

    I only use soft sealants to assist the gasket to slip into place properly, eg Non-hardening Permatex . I am the first to admit to a tool box disaster as the result of a permatex detonation, (it never leaks slowly, you wake up one morning and there it is, the sticky mass).

    http://www.permatex.com/

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Indeed, it's important to avoid using too much or localising its use...

    But it's also reasonable to expect that allowing it to go off will avoid problems as you mention. And how big a piece could it be to get through the gauze on the typical fuel pump pickup?

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    MrV
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    i see...

    thanks for putting my mind at ease... i'm glad its a relatively common thing. From what i gather, it was a very thin layer (probably 2-3mm as mentioned).

    If it wasn't applied correctly that would be why it was leaking oil then, right? i mean, it definitely was coming from the sump and it wasn't the plug. are the rubber gaskets in any superior to the 'goo' then?
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Even when it's applied correctly, people can make mistakes...

    They might brush over a section with a finger as they're offering up the sump, this might leave a very light coating in one area and it could hold for a while and blow out later.

    It's only as you pull it apart you can find this sort of thing.

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    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Indeed, it's important to avoid using too much or localising its use...

    But it's also reasonable to expect that allowing it to go off will avoid problems as you mention. And how big a piece could it be to get through the gauze on the typical fuel pump pickup?
    That depends on the diameter of the screw driver used to pry the oil pick up off, last time the sump was removed.
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    Default Oil leak surprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Indeed, it's important to avoid using too much or localising its use...

    But it's also reasonable to expect that allowing it to go off will avoid problems as you mention. And how big a piece could it be to get through the gauze on the typical fuel pump pickup?
    Unfortunately the blockages etc caused by Silastic type sealants usually occur before the pump pickup.

    The 140 Volvos had a copper water tube* in the head with slots that directed water to the exh valve region. If some prat used silastic on the water pump gasket it would neatly block these slots.
    *I believe early Renaults had these tubes also ?
    Back to the oil leak. A Ren 21 I was alotted to fix a miniscule crank seal leak used a Hylomar type "gasket" on the sump. The rear main bearing cap instead of having rubber "hockey stick" seals, required this type of sealant to be injected into the grooves on either side of the cap.

    PRV6's have their crankcase sections sealed sparingly with a similar goo.

    To see these sealants oozing out of newly overhauled engines etc, to me is the mark of an amateur.

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    Most new engines, if not all, use silicone sealants on many of their joints. I'd assume that they must be OK if used correctly. I find a very thin bead towards the outside of the sealing surfaces is best, so it doesn't squeeze out inside the sump/water pump etc. Mind you, I've never been successful in sealing my R12's sump!

    In an attempt to thwart the dreaded XJ sump leak, we used silicone on the sump gasket of the E-Type. It was left to go off for a couple of months before the engine was run with oil in it. There is not one drip of oil leaking after a year or so of running - a feat deemed almost impossible by most Jag people.

    Stuey


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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Yes, Silastic has been the salvation of British automotive engineering...

    The motorcycle people especially love curing pommie oil leaks. They're too used to Japanese cleanliness.

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Oil Leak Surprise.

    A comment in today's "West".
    "Jaguars don't leak they are just marking their territory!"

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    Three Bond is the best stuff i have ever used. got it from Bursons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    Most new engines, if not all, use silicone sealants on many of their joints. I'd assume that they must be OK if used correctly. I find a very thin bead towards the outside of the sealing surfaces is best, so it doesn't squeeze out inside the sump/water pump etc. Mind you, I've never been successful in sealing my R12's sump!

    In an attempt to thwart the dreaded XJ sump leak, we used silicone on the sump gasket of the E-Type. It was left to go off for a couple of months before the engine was run with oil in it. There is not one drip of oil leaking after a year or so of running - a feat deemed almost impossible by most Jag people.

    Stuey
    On the earlier Toyotas and some other Jappos as well as on a lot of their washing machines, the Japs used plain old Contact adhesive as a gasket goo.
    I've used it for years on both cars and machines and found it second to none and before you tell me how I'll never get the gaskets off, think again; it peels off like a skin. In fact it works so well that most Jap twin tubs never even used hose clips and neither did a lot of their autos.
    I always have handy a tube of it, in fact the $1.95 stuff sold by Sollys/Warehouse is a fairly thick stuff that I've found excellent. You must have a clean dry surface but I've used it on sumps, water pumps and even base plates on C-matics (that everyone told me I would never seal.)
    The early Toyotas used to have a cork rocker cover gasket and they even used it on that & I've seen mechanics being really careful, remove reseal and refit one of those without it leaking. I have even seen gaskets split that have been coated that haven't leaked, so think about it on the old R12; you might get a surprise.

    Alan S
    Last edited by Alan S; 21st May 2005 at 07:28 PM.
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    'Splirt' Alan? Do you mean split?

    Just trying to clarify exactly what you're saying there...

    Was it a contact adhesive that was used on the sump gaskets on 12Rs and 18Rs? The things that would never come off, the cork had to be split up the middle?

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    The sump and stiffener plate are supposed to be rigidity fixed together.This can't be achieved with a gasket. I can understand a mediocre mechanic using the gasket. The best stuff to use is ThreeBond 1211. It's designed for extreme duty metal to metal sealing, such as motorcycle grearboxes.

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    grearboxes.
    Yes Ray, I meant 'split' been a hard day,looks like poor old Peter has too with his bloody 'grearboxes'

    Yeah it was 12R and 18R engines and usually the cork only needed to be split if they had re-used it. The mechanics were gobsmacked at the efficiency of it, but it was a sight to see a brand new car in the workshop with a big 16 stone bald headed greasemonkey with a fag hanging out the side of his mouth laying into the rocker cover with a big rubber mallet trying to break the suction; that's how well it used to seal.
    I think we may have been one of the first to restrict workshop admittance to "unauthorised persons" (particularly owners) for two reasons; it used to freak 'em out and we were worried someone might get hit with the bloody mallet if he broke the head off whilst removing the cover!

    Alan S
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    As I said, Alan, I only asked because it was hard to understand what you meant...

    All I remember about those Toymotor sumps was just as you describe, they hung on and hung on until the cork tore apart... and they were very hard to clean off the sump when you got them apart.

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    Gee, Its not often that one puts in the next post after RB.

    I thought this was as good as any place to raise the depate about what to seal the sump and rocker cover with.
    Its a fuego motor, with a new cardboard type sump and rubber type rocker gasket.
    Should I use a thin smear of silicon, three bond, or a non setting product like Hylomar.

    I can see the advantages of a non setting sealer on the rocker as it may need to come off a few times.

    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Gee, Its not often that one puts in the next post after RB.

    I thought this was as good as any place to raise the depate about what to seal the sump and rocker cover with.
    Its a fuego motor, with a new cardboard type sump and rubber type rocker gasket.
    Should I use a thin smear of silicon, three bond, or a non setting product like Hylomar.

    I can see the advantages of a non setting sealer on the rocker as it may need to come off a few times.

    Jo
    GASKET every time, if it's designed to use one. Use a smectum of hylomar or aviation gasket cement on both sides.

    Retain gaskets which are subject to routine removal and replacement, ie tappet cover, with some silicon sealant to one surface only.

    I do this with the XN engine neoprene tappet cover gaskets.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    GASKET every time, if it's designed to use one. Use a smectum of hylomar or aviation gasket cement on both sides.

    Retain gaskets which are subject to routine removal and replacement, ie tappet cover, with some silicon sealant to one surface only.

    I do this with the XN engine neoprene tappet cover gaskets.
    Yes I was thinking along that line for the rocker cover.
    Silicon for the steel pan, torqued and cured, then the rocker cover removed and hylomar used for the head surface.
    I read on their website last night to allow the hylomar to fully lose its solvent for 20 min before offering to a rubber seal.


    Jo

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