Top End Rattle.
  • Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Top End Rattle.

  1. #1
    Member 350manx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Kiewa Valley, North East Victoria.
    Posts
    100

    Default Top End Rattle.

    I need the advice of the experts here. I have had my 1988 GTI 205 for about 4 years and it has always had an intermittent rattle in the top end. I only use the car on odd occassions so it has been easy to ignore. I recently went on a 5 day cruise and it annoyed the hell out of me so much that I would like to fix it. The car has done about 225,000 ks but the engine had new sleeves, pistons etc about 20k ago before I bought it but I don't know about the top end. Logic would say it was at least looked at.

    The problem is the noise I get sounds just like very lose tappets and if it didn't come and go I would swear there was my problem. The trouble is it can be very noisy for a while and then it just fades to absolutely nothing (ah... bliss!) I think that maybe there is some wear on the cam followers in certain places from the cam and that perhaps the followers rotate from time to time and this eases the problem. Am I somehere near the mark here?

    Advertisement


    Any advice would be greatfully received.

    Thanks.

    David.

  2. #2
    Member 350manx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Kiewa Valley, North East Victoria.
    Posts
    100

    Default

    [QUOTE=350manx]
    I think that maybe there is some wear on the cam followers in certain places from the cam and that perhaps the followers rotate from time to time and this eases the problem.
    QUOTE]

    Hey Guys - I thought you might have an answer for me but nothing to date. After reading some of the other threads there appears to be a fair bit of knowledge and experience out there - am I the only one to have experienced this problem??

    David.

  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    8,923

    Default

    It's hard for any Citroen owner to say much because we hear the hydraulic pumps tacking away all the time, but you could be pointing in the right direction.
    Intermitttent problems particularly noises are almost impossible to diagnose from afar, but I'd be inclined to look at the grade and brand of oil you're using as a possible culprit or cure.
    I don't necessarily mean go to treacle as you may already be running thick stuff, but often a higher quality will do the trick. Try a 15W/50 semi synth. as an experiment if you're currently running mineral oil.
    I had an intermittent rattle on a Ford Spectron 1.8 that had me stumped until we did the engine and discovered that the air cleaner hose was disintegrating and little bits of rubber were getting into the intake and obviously holding the valves up slightly and causing the rattle.
    We replaced the hose and lost the rattle.


    Alan S
    Last edited by Alan S; 16th May 2005 at 12:54 PM. Reason: Added info re: air cleaner hose.
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,487

    Default

    Check the valve clearances are within spec.:

    inlet 006"-0.010"
    exhaust 0.013-0.018"
    (from memory)

    If the exhaust is on the high side it will be a bit noisey, but not unacceptable.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  5. #5
    Member 350manx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Kiewa Valley, North East Victoria.
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Thanks for the responses guys. Have always used quality oils (not into false economy) and I have checked the tappet clearances and they were within spec. But having said that I wasn't aware of (or looking for) any wear on the followers and the feeler guage may have straddled any worn area thereby giving a false ready of the actual gap anyway.

    It's the intermittant thing that's got me stuffed and that's why I thought there must be something moving (rotating) from a worn area to a non worn area. I guess I'll have to find the time to pull the cover off and have a decent inspection.

    David.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,527

    Default

    David, do you have a Manx Norton?


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  7. #7
    Member 350manx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Kiewa Valley, North East Victoria.
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    David, do you have a Manx Norton?
    Yes. I have a 1952 Featherbed long stroke 350. Late last year I blew the hell out of it when pulling about 6400 down the back straight at Broadford when the piston let go. Conrod now has a 45 degree angle at little end, piston only has the crown left, bent valves (which I had replaced 12 months earler), barrel absolutley stuffed with a huge hole in the side and lower skirt mutilated but fortunately did not throw the rod out the cases as they are about $3,000 plus per set! The rebuild will cost enough without that.

    Being rebuilt by one of the old masters in Melbourne at the moment and after that I'm not sure whether I'll keep racing or move onto another project in the shed. I know what I should do!!! (This has been confirmed by my wife!!)

    Historic racing is great fun but can be expensive under the above circumstances. I keep telling myself it should have been OK to 6,900!!!

    David.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,527

    Default

    Nice one. Thanks for the info. - I've been out to Wanneroo (Barbagallo) Raceway here in WA and watched the historics, although I'm not 'into it' as such (went out on a modern Ducati) but it was certainly more interesting and characterful than the modern stuff!

    Nothing like the Norton, but my Dad had a BSA (Gold Flash) and a Panther way back.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    8,923

    Default

    The ES2 were a Norton that not many were aware of and were about on par with a Camry in the car world (always started and got you where you wanted to go but totally lacking excitement) but I knew a couple who had them and they could really go if they had a bit of work done to them.
    They seemed to be highly detuned and made a bit of an impact at the scrambles once they were given a "touch up."

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  10. #10
    Member 350manx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Kiewa Valley, North East Victoria.
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    !

    Nothing like the Norton, but my Dad had a BSA (Gold Flash) and a Panther way back.

    Stuey
    Stuey,
    Nothing wrong with the Beezers. I've had a few over the years including a couple of Gold Stars in addition to a Triumph Thunderbird, Matchless, Ariel (inlcuding a very nice VHA) and some others including some Hondas but I'm really a classic car man and plan to concentrate more on them now than the bikes. Haven't race for about six months now and can't I've missed it that much. Probably been desensitised somewhat by the trauma to the hip pocket nerve!!
    David.

  11. #11
    Member 350manx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Kiewa Valley, North East Victoria.
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Update. I have spoken to a friend of mine who thinks the problem may be a top end lubrication problem. Now... if anyone has a diagram showing where the oil should be coming from the lubricate the tappets - now would be a good time to send it to me!!
    David.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    2,694

    Default Top End Rattle.

    Quote Originally Posted by 350manx
    Yes. I have a 1952 Featherbed long stroke 350. Late last year I blew the hell out of it when pulling about 6400 down the back straight at Broadford when the piston let go. Conrod now has a 45 degree angle at little end, piston only has the crown left, bent valves (which I had replaced 12 months earler), barrel absolutley stuffed with a huge hole in the side and lower skirt mutilated but fortunately did not throw the rod out the cases as they are about $3,000 plus per set! The rebuild will cost enough without that.

    Being rebuilt by one of the old masters in Melbourne at the moment and after that I'm not sure whether I'll keep racing or move onto another project in the shed. I know what I should do!!! (This has been confirmed by my wife!!)

    Historic racing is great fun but can be expensive under the above circumstances. I keep telling myself it should have been OK to 6,900!!!

    David.
    350 Manx.
    What a fantastic nom de plume!
    Stuey couldn't help himself, jumping in on the Norton thing. At least I waited.
    Sorry to read about your troubles, metalurgical old age?
    I read somewhere that the Manx had a rev figure that had to be rushed through to avoid disaster. This may have referred to their use in the Formula 3 Coopers. [500 Manx].
    If you've got a pound or three modern parts are available for most English racing motorbikes.
    Do the regs require you to cover up the primary drive in Australia ?
    There's nothing like the sound of a Pommy single racer being warmed up. rolling on and off the throttle! Who needs Viagra ?
    A friend of mine claims, that at the York Round The Houses he was in the pits when the above was in progress, it curdled his Choc Milk !

    Alan S.
    In 1951 [11yo] my teacher had a Norton ES2. On Friday afternoons when the rest of the class were doing 'musical appreciation' I was given the job of cleaning the Norton. I got to know every nook and cranny.

    David, back to your query. I wouldn't be blaming the oil you've been using as suggested by some.
    I remember an almost similar question being raised a while back. In this case the noise was coming from the cam belt cover/s

  13. #13
    Member 350manx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Kiewa Valley, North East Victoria.
    Posts
    100

    Default

    [QUOTE=Wildebeest]350 Manx.
    Sorry to read about your troubles, metalurgical old age?
    I read somewhere that the Manx had a rev figure that had to be rushed through to avoid disaster.
    If you've got a pound or three modern parts are available for most English racing motorbikes.
    Do the regs require you to cover up the primary drive in Australia ?
    There's nothing like the sound of a Pommy single racer being warmed up. rolling on and off the throttle!
    I remember an almost similar question being raised a while back. In this case the noise was coming from the cam belt cover

    Hi Alan,
    The offending part (Piston) wasn't that old really we discovered it was the wrong one!! (sand cast instead of forged) The conrod however (a beautiful specimen of engineering) that was damaged as a result of the piston failure has the date stamp of 1957 on it!
    Haven't heard anything about needing to quickly go through a rev range to avoid disaster but I would say that whenever I raced I was always trying to get the the rev limit ASAP so I guess this has the same effect!!
    You can buy anything for a Manx now including a comlete bike it just gets down to $.
    Primary drive must be covered and mine is a simple chain guard.
    Ahhhh! the warming up process and the waiting on the dummy grid - an absolute delight and now (thanks to you) I'm starting to miss it!
    Thanks for the tip on the cam belt cover I'll put that on the list when I find some time to start looking for the problem.
    Thanks again for your respose.
    Cheers, David.

  14. #14
    Administrator
    mistareno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    4,926

    Default

    Not sure if you have fixed the pug, but could it possibly be a cracked header?

    I have heard many a Fuego/25 with the usual hairline crack around number 1 cylinder and it can often sound very similar to a tappet, except it comes and goes as the manifold heats up and cools down and on colder days it may always be audiable...

    Just a suggestion outside the square...

  15. #15
    Member 350manx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Kiewa Valley, North East Victoria.
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Update: After consideration and discussion with others I was starting to think the noise was due to lack of lubrication so on the week-end I took the rocker cover off and peered inside. All looked Ok there was no obvious wear on the cam or the followers and there was oil pooling in the head so there was some oil getting there. However I noticed the cam oil line that runs along the head and has 8 holes strategically placed above the cam lobes, wasn't securely attached.

    This line has 5 fittings that press into the saddles that hold the cam down (from memory) and they are a press fit and it appears to be fed from the first fitting which is at the distributor end. This fitting wasn't pushed all the way home which, by my reckoning, would allow some of the oil that is intented to go along the line and be squirted onto the cam lobe to be lost and just dribble out.

    Need to reassemble air cleaner etc and test drive and will let you know if that's it. Obviously this news will be on no consequence to all others as it appears to be a problem that only I have experienced but I feel compelled to share!!!!

  16. #16
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    8,923

    Default

    I hope you're lucky, but I found that on one of our cars but it didn't make a scap of difference; perhaps yours might, only time will tell.
    If it's any help; I had a weird one a while back that was causing me some real concerns. However when I took the manifold off, I discovered that the retaining clip to the injector on the cylinder I was getting the noise out of wasn't clipped in properly and after I had fitted the new injector kits and reassembled the car, I now find the noise is gone.
    My theory (rightly or wrongly) was that perhaps I was sucking in air on intake and severely weakening the mix and as I had tried to describe the noise almost like some kind of detonation, ( itwas a strange noise that sounded almost metallic but you knew it wasn't) it seems this may have been the problem.
    When you think about it, the "O" ring would have been getting sucked and pulled at so it could possibly be the cause of an intermittent problem.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  17. #17
    Member 350manx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Kiewa Valley, North East Victoria.
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    I hope you're lucky, but I found that on one of our cars but it didn't make a scap of difference; perhaps yours might, only time will tell.
    Umm. Bugger! Being the supreme optimist I will hold onto the belief I have found it until I drive the car! It is interesting how one draws conclusions about noises etc. While acknowledging it may not be, I have a feeling this one is definately related to the overhead gear. I would be happy to be proved wrong just to fix it. Funny how you can live with it for along time but when you decide to fix it - you want it fixed NOW!!

    The other thing I found when I had things apart was the rubber grommets for a major wiring loom and the speedo cable had separated from the holes so that would also magnify the noise in the cabin.

  18. #18
    Member 350manx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Kiewa Valley, North East Victoria.
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 350manx
    Umm. Bugger! Being the supreme optimist I will hold onto the belief I have found it until I drive the car! It is interesting how one draws conclusions about noises etc. While acknowledging it may not be, I have a feeling this one is definately related to the overhead gear. I would be happy to be proved wrong just to fix it. Funny how you can live with it for along time but when you decide to fix it - you want it fixed NOW!!

    The other thing I found when I had things apart was the rubber grommets for a major wiring loom and the speedo cable had separated from the holes so that would also magnify the noise in the cabin.
    Well she's back together and as quiet as a mouse (well....you know what I mean!). Its such a nice feeling to give it a rev and hear the exhaust bark at the back in lieu of the mechanical noises at the front. I'm not completely sure whether it was the correction to the oil feed line or the plugging of the holes in the fire wall but I think both. The holes wouldn't have caused the intermittant thing - the oil feed line could have.
    David.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •