Petrol 504 cylinder head.
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! tasgill's Avatar
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    Petrol 504 cylinder head.

    G'day all.
    Been a long time lurker here, this is the first time I've stuck my head up. I am a Peugeot nut and currently run a 405 srdt and recently purchased a low k 1980 504 petrol.

    I have found the Aussie pugs forum to be very interesting and with many good topics.

    I'm having the 504 cylinder head repaired at the moment and with the welding work and new valves and guides face a bill of $740. Now to my concern, I'm a mechanic who gave it away years ago and don't really trust the people who work on cars these days, so my concern is "will my money be wisely spent"

    Can any body tell me if new heads are available and at what price, or maybe someone has a really good corrosion free head lying around that they wouldn't mind selling. The head is the square port design as used in the 505's.

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    Terry Asgill.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Not sure about the availability of heads, Terry, but that price is pretty high if its simply for the head work (excluding fitting etc).

    Cheers

    Rod
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    Peugeot 4008 2016Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, (deadish), - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 406 ST 1997, 307 XSE, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Who's doing the job and does it include fitting hard exhaust seats to suit unleaded fuels?

    It would have to have plenty of corrosion to justify that cost... plenty!

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! tasgill's Avatar
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    Ray and Rod
    the head work doesn't include the hard exhaust inserts, thats another $28 dollars ea. The head is fairly well corroded, and the front welsh plug has been washed out. They are welding an aluminum plate in its place.

    The last head I had repaired (no valves or inserts) only cost about $250 but that was a few years ago. I believe the price to be very high, but I have lost contact with what is going on.

    The head is being repaired here in Toowoomba by a local firm.

    Terry

  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Go get the head back...

    I would recommend PLR Engine Reconditioning for the welding, they do lots of Pug heads and I'm sure they don't charge anything like a figure that would contribute to that level of exhorbitant price.

    Check around for the head work, ask if they would recommend anyone. I don't think they actually do head work there, but they may these days.

    PLR are at Kremzow Road, Brendale.

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger!
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    i'm looking for the same thing.
    Hard to get, why???

    Cause all the Africans have them!!!

    So while they made a profit, we have to pay top dollar for what was once a common item...

    I am looking at 2 options at the moment because my head is stuffed. There isn't much change from $500 bucks though. Pity the cars only worth $1,500...
    I will let you know if i come across another head..
    Cheers
    Adrian
    Peugeot
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  7. #7
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    I have a 505 GR head in usuable condition, no valves.
    $80

    Graham Wallis

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Ive got one as well with the valves and in good condition. Email me on [email protected] if your interested.

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! tasgill's Avatar
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    Thank to all who replied, I got onto a head locally.

    Terry

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Thanks Graham

    Your a champ!!!
    Peugeot
    "Anything else is a Compromise!"

  11. #11
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I've had about 5 different pug heads welded over the past 14 years and the most I've ever paid was about $120 and that was to a VERY corroded head (but that was in about 1989). The heads I've done in the past few years have all needed about $40-$60 worth of welding, but that's probably because I now go straight to the place that does the welding and cut out the middle man.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger!
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    There is a business in Adelaide called Rick Corbett engine reconditioners, they charged my mate $270 to fix a head, that had already been fixed 12 months prior. It was a commodore head.

    They wanted $800-$1,000 to fix my Gr head

    anyone know of a reasonably priced head reco joint in Adelaide??

    Otherwise it might be cheaper to get it shipped to your guy Dave???
    Peugeot
    "Anything else is a Compromise!"

  13. #13
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Cant_get_enough_of_peugeots:


    Otherwise it might be cheaper to get it shipped to your guy Dave???
    I should probably point out that they curse everytime I take a head there because they usually have some troubles with sand in the alloy affecting the weld and sometimes they have to have a few goes at some of the welds. It's normal for it to end up with a few tiny pock marks and sometimes I have to get them to take an extra 0.5mm off the head to get rid of the marks when they're close to the combustion chamber, where they may affect gasket sealing under combustion pressure.

    It's not too bad when you're wanting to raise the compression anyway, but if you want to get the best possible job, while keeping the head as close to standard thickness as possible, then there may be someone else who has more experience welding dodgy head castings.

    I just wouldn't like you to send a head all the way over here, and then find you're not happy with it.

    I wish the 404/504/505 heads were cast as nice as the old 203/403 heads were. I guess that in the early days of alloy heads they took more care during production, until they realised what they could get away with.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! tasgill's Avatar
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    Hi
    Does anyone happen to know the deck height of these heads, and the correct way to measure it. ( Not sure if deck height is correct term, I wan't to make sure it hasn't been machined excessively ).

    I had endless problems with pinking in a previous 505, would rather not have the same problem with this car. Am prepared to run Optimax or similar.

    What is the maximum sensible CR to run?

    Is there a rough and ready way to work the CR out? ( eg 10 thou metal removed = 1 point )

    Are decompression plates a viable option?

    Has anyone any first hand knowledge on using magnesium as a sacrifical metal in these engines?

    Apart from using a good glycol free inhibitor with de-ionized water changed yearly, any other tips on keeping head corrosion under control?

    thank you
    Terry

  15. #15
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Original head thickness is 92.5mm, measured from block mounting face to rocker mounting points.

    Every 1mm shaved off the head raises the compression by approximately 0.8 of a ratio point.

    Assuming your 505 has its original pistons (8.8:1) then 1mm shaved off would raise the compressio to approx 9.6:1. With standard sized jets in the carby the engine will usually ping like crazy with any more compression than that, unless you retard the timing so much that it becomes gutless. Even at 9.2-9.5:1 you may have to use optimax or premium fuel to prevent pinging with the standard carby jets.

    If the pistons have been replaced at some point in the past 10 years then it may have the flat(ish) top 8.1:1 pistons, which would allow the head to be shaved by around 2 mm before the same problem occurs. Somewhere around that point you may also get valve to piston clearance problems (make sure you check this out if your head has been shaved by that much, or even less if you're using a TI camshaft or modified cam).

    8.8:1 pistons have approx a 2.5mm high dome

    8.35:1 pistons have approx a 1.5mm high dome

    8.1:1 pistons have approx a 0.5mm high dome (i.e they look flat)

    Dave

    <small>[ 25 August 2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    They're good handy figures to know, Dave... thanks for those.

    As for decrompresssion plates, I have one car which had two head gaskets fitted when I bought it. I guess I did another 45,000kms on top of the unknown previous mileage as it was and it still runs.

    No doubt this has a pretty thin head on it, and of course this is an old remedy, though I'd not recommend it.

    I always dreaded the thought of having a problem with that engine because I knew if I did I'd have to retrieve another head from among my rough old collection of the early 504 heads to replace it.

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! tasgill's Avatar
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    Thanks Dave, excellent....

    Terry

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