Diesel engine speed
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  1. #1
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Diesel engine speed

    What revs will the respective diesel engines of the 405/6, 504/5 and 206/306 spin to?

    Just an idle question brought on by a thought about what really constitutes a 'high speed diesel'...

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  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    around 4500rpm on high idle as diesels hvae only low and high idle positions

    from what i have been told most any diesel that revs over 900rpm is classified as a high speed diesel
    for example loco engines run at around 500rpm all day
    basically any diesel engine that isn't used in an industrial situation (that is used in a vehicle) is a high speed diesel
    even engines in tractors and graders and loaders and trucks are high speed engines as they generally have a high idle setting of between 2200-2700RPM
    3 x '78 604 SL

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  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    So, just to clarify, is 4500rpm the highest?

  4. #4
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    So, just to clarify, is 4500rpm the highest?
    Ray,

    The old 2.3 and 2.5 diesels and turbodiesels in the 504 and 505 are governed to about 4500rpm or a tad over. Their peak power is just below this, although they feel pretty breathless at those revs. Their doesn't seem to be much point taking them over about 4000rpm. They are just tractor engines as far as head design is concerned.

    The 405 and 406 turbodiesels on the other hand have MUCH better breathing and will easily rev up to 5000rpm, because their head designs are alot like their petrol brethren. The 406 diesel in particular revs as well as many 8V petrol engines due to its multivalve head. I think it will go as high as about 6000rpm before the rev limiter cuts in.

    The FWD Pud diesels don't suffer from the prolific oil leaks which the old RWD Pug diesels do either. My father was always changing the oil seal on the timing cover of his 504 diesel. He eventually had it machined to fit a better seal, but even then it wasn't prefect. Other 504/505 diesel owners have told me they've had similar problems.

    If they'd used a slinger on the front they wouldn't have had to worry about blowing seals, but worn diesels have alot more crankcase pressure so slingers may not be as suitable as on a petrol engine..

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
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  5. #5
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    Renault diesels (the new DCi ones - common rail diesels) spin to 5500rpm (wow). Not that much happens past 4500rpm however.

    Derek

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    The redline on the 405 SRDT is 5000 but the idea with a diesel is to use its ample torque, which is at max at 2250 rpm therefore between 2 and 3k rpm is the ideal driving range, ie bucket loads of torque and the snail spinning up well.

    Gotta love the snail and chiller combo
    Neil
    '94 405 SRBT

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  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    cruiserman:
    The redline on the 405 SRDT is 5000 but the idea with a diesel is to use its ample torque, which is at max at 2250 rpm therefore between 2 and 3k rpm is the ideal driving range, ie bucket loads of torque and the snail spinning up well.
    Very true. Unfortunately with the old naturally aspirated RWD Pug diesels the torque band was narrower than the gaps between the gears, because the gearboxes were designed for a petrol engine.

    The old diesels really needed about 8 closely spaced gears to keep them on their torque peak.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    That is why turbocharges and diesels are like peaches and cream made for each other. Our 505 SRDT was sluggish off the line with the auto, but 5 ratios and getting rid of the powersucking torque converter made a different car.
    Neil
    '94 405 SRBT

    '82 CX 2400 Pallas 5spd

    '77 CX 2400 Pallas 4spd manual Import

    '76 CX Super

    '05 WL Statesman

    '92 HZJ80 Landcruiser

  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    The 405 and 406 turbodiesels on the other hand have MUCH better breathing and will easily rev up to 5000rpm, because their head designs are alot like their petrol brethren
    This has nothing, ok, nearly nothing to do with what limits a diesel to reaching its full rpm limit. The engine, no matter what it is, has been designed to run using air and fuel, a little thing like intake port design isn't going to make ANY differnece what so ever to a diesel reaching its full rpm potential. Haha, even to make a point, take the fuel away and diesels can STILL sometimes run, they dont even need fuel, they'll make their own....oil don't you know. In reguards to the high/low speed diesel thing, not sure what rpm ranges differentiate the different classes, but I know for a fact that even diesels doing 2700 rpm are still classed as MEDIUM diesels.
    If they'd used a slinger on the front they wouldn't have had to worry about blowing seals
    Dont these cars have engine breathers????

    Thank you.... head_ban

  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Thanks guys... that answered my question well enough.

  11. #11
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    R6ual:
    The engine, no matter what it is, has been designed to run using air and fuel, a little thing like intake port design isn't going to make ANY differnece what so ever to a diesel reaching its full rpm potential. :
    Yes you're right you need AIR and fuel. How does the air get in? Through the INTAKE ports. So how can you say that a "little thing like intake port design" has nothing to do with RPM potential?

    The higher the engine speed, the better the intake port design has to be in order for the engine to work efficiently. The only way around this is to force the air in (i.e. turbo or supercharge it). Even so, a forced induction engine is still ultimately limited by the path the air must take to enter the engine.

    Yes you may be a diesel fitter, but it seems like you've spent little time going any deeper into the theory of engine design other than what you need to do your job. I hope I'm wrong here.

    I just get the impression that you're one of these young (under 40) diesel fitters who think they know everything and that everybody else is somehow an idiot. I hope you're not actually like that. Don't get me wrong, I'm young too (30), and I tend to get carried away with some messages also. I know what it's like. It's easy to give people the wrong impression about yourself with an over zealous posting on a forum like this. It's also easy to leave out some info, or spell something wrong and give the wrong impression of you're actual level of knowledge.

    Just as a matter of interest, your nickname gives the impression that you're keen on the Yamaha YZFR6. A few years ago I helped build a 300kg racing car using an R6 engine. Obviously it was geared alot lower than a motorbike (peaked out at 160km/h) but geez it went like a bat out of hell. I love those engines.

    Yes you're right, a good breather should vent off excessive crankcase pressure. These Pug diesel engines should have a good breather design. Unfortunately they don't. It makes a very tortured path up through the head, out through the tappet cover and then through a tiny 0.25" hose. Hardly ideal.

    Dave

    <small>[ 15 August 2003, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
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    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  12. #12
    Tadpole
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    I do apologies for possibly getting off on the wrong foot, one of my friend moderators on this forum told me I may have. Although, I know more of the diesel aspect than you possibly think, well that is to say, if you're saying that a diesel engine is limited by valve port design, then I disagree, if we are talking a potentially Formula 1 diesel engine, then maybe, otherwise, no, if you can find me a place when the compression ratio of a diesel will be comprimised for performance by port design that has already been designed to make the engine run, then, I strongly reccommend you reconsider. The engine will run perfectly normal. If you are talking about optimising the fuel/air mix at intake, then there is the chance of putting in swirl port intake valve seats. The problem is, with diesels, is not getting air into the cylinders, its being able to get the fuel to burn that being dumped into the cylinders. I know thats directly an air issue, but its more than just the air. How many people point the finger at injectors? Air is a big issue yes, but a MUCH bigger issue is having fuel atomise properly for combustion of a diesel. I know this might seem like trivial stuff to a fitter (am presuming you are one davemcbean), but atomisation, must be considered... As afar as the speeds of diesels go, I DO know from direct experience that 2700 rpm engines are considered medium speed diesels. By the way, I would like to consider myself as to have some knowledge of the diesel industry, I've worked for the CAT dealer in Bris for over 7 yrs and am pretty sure Ive picked up on a few things in my time. I dont mean to tell people that they dont know anything, but some things are certains, and the things I speak of are certains, thats just the way it is, like the sky is blue, sorry.

  13. #13
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    R6ual:
    I do apologies for possibly getting off on the wrong foot, one of my friend moderators on this forum told me I may have. Although, I know more of the diesel aspect than you possibly think, well that is to say, if you're saying that a diesel engine is limited by valve port design, then I disagree, if we are talking a potentially Formula 1 diesel engine, then maybe, otherwise, no, if you can find me a place when the compression ratio of a diesel will be comprimised for performance by port design that has already been designed to make the engine run, then, I strongly reccommend you reconsider. The engine will run perfectly normal. If you are talking about optimising the fuel/air mix at intake, then there is the chance of putting in swirl port intake valve seats. The problem is, with diesels, is not getting air into the cylinders, its being able to get the fuel to burn that being dumped into the cylinders. I know thats directly an air issue, but its more than just the air. How many people point the finger at injectors? Air is a big issue yes, but a MUCH bigger issue is having fuel atomise properly for combustion of a diesel. I know this might seem like trivial stuff to a fitter (am presuming you are one davemcbean), but atomisation, must be considered...
    Yes, I agree with what you're saying, but if you want any engine to rev past 5000rpm, then valve timing, valve area and port design become VERY important factors. There's no getting around it.

    Obviously this is not normally much of an issue in diesel engines because very few of them are designed to rev over 5000rpm and their high compression ratio allows them to get the most from what air they do ingest anyway.

    Show me any engine with log manifolds, siamesed right angle ports, smallish valves and no valve timing overlap which can run efficiently above 5000rpm.

    I have been involved with modifying petrol car cylinder heads and I've experienced the performance gains which can be made by improving the flow through the ports. They are definitely not insignificant, but I agree that they're of less value on low and medium speed diesels.

    Some of the biggest improvements in all car engines in the past 20 years has been that the inlet port designs have greatly improved, as well as the fact that most car engines now have more than one inlet valve per cylinder. You will rarely find a new car engine now which has siamesed ports with right angle bends in them. They mostly have individual ports with nice sweeping bends and nicely shaped valves, etc. These same improvements have been made to Peugeot diesel car engines as well as alot of other stuff (lighter weight, less inertia, better fueling etc). These are some of the highest reving diesel engines around.

    Obviously every engine has its ideal speed range which it was deigned for. The older Pug diesels were never designed to go over 4500rpm so they just gave them simple right angle siamesed ports. They're fine for the designed speed range of the engine.

    Yes, I do come from a fitting background, but that's pretty irrelevent. Fitting at Port Kembla steelworks was a pretty rough science.

    Dave

    <small>[ 16 August 2003, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  14. #14
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    Ray, what have you started? this looks like state of origin mark 2 . cane toad

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Yeah, I ought to get my son back from America to toss his great bulk into the arena to referee!

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    Fellow Frogger! tasgill's Avatar
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    Just my threepence worth.....

    Both fuel atomization and port design are important in a diesel engine. Atomization because the fuel needs to start burning as quickly as possible, and port design because volumetric efficency has to be as high as possible so that compression temperatures at injection point are high enough to initiate burning. My 405 srdt has static timing of 11 degrees btdc, and total pump advance of 24 crankshaft degrees, so at high revs the air has to be hot enough 35 degrees BTDC to start the burning process. This is achieved by good port design, good atomization and very high compression ratios and of course turbos.

    The compression ratio of the 405 is roughly 45:1 at full boost...The mind boggles.

    So maybe metalurgy is the limiting factor in how fast a diesel engine can run..

    I was an oil driller years ago, and the rig I enjoyed operating most was powered by 3 turboed Superior diesels that developed roughly 700 hp each at around 700 rpm. Those things had incredible torque, and the sound of the turbos spinning down after a hard pull at 3 am on a winters morning was a joy to my ears.

    Just loove diesels....

    Terry

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! tasgill's Avatar
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    I guess I should have said the compression ratio is the equivalent of 45:1, not allowing for volumetric inefficences and heating of the charge air by the turbo.

    Terry

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    heating of the charge air by the turbo.
    One of the advantages of living in a cooler climate is that the air is more dense, the intercooler really helps. When I had my Landcruiser intercooled, it was like driving it on a very cold morning all the time.
    Neil
    '94 405 SRBT

    '82 CX 2400 Pallas 5spd

    '77 CX 2400 Pallas 4spd manual Import

    '76 CX Super

    '05 WL Statesman

    '92 HZJ80 Landcruiser

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger!
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    The all aluminium OHC XLD engines (1255 cc) fitted to the Peugeot 204 starting in 1967 developed their maximum power of 40 DIN HP at.......5000 rpm. That was considered to be unbelievably high at the time, for a Diesel. I'm not sure, but they were likely governed at 5500.

    The galling thing is that over ten years later, Volkswagen claimed to have invented the world's first all-aluminium transversely-mounted OHC high speed Diesel engine, mounted in the Golf I. HAH! Arrogant, ignorant bastards
    -Mike
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  20. #20
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Like BMC invented the transverse front engine package... with gearbox under the engine?

    They ultimately had to pay Peugeot for the privilege...

  21. #21
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    Isn't the claim not that BMC invented the gearbox under engine configuration, but that they used common oil so that the overall package could be made more compact?

    Not arguing - I'm genuinely interested, being a big Mini fan (and having a Dad that used to be a fitter for BMC in Birmingham). What did BMC pay for the rights to?

    Cheers

    Stuey


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  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I don't really know, but there was some kind of settlement for patent infringement...

  23. #23
    Tadpole
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    Am in agreement tasgill, love the sound of a heavy diesel powerering down, better still, loading up head_ban Heres a couple of pics of a couple of engines Ive recently worked on. The first one is a 3516, Caterpiller V-16, 69 Litre. Cant remember exact bhp, but the generators go online, rated at 1.8 Mega Watt.
    The second engine is a 3606, in the Port of Brisbane dredge. 6 cylinder, 110 litres displacement, myself and another guy rebuilt it wink The dredge actually has 2 of these engines. Now let me tell ya, THAT sounds good on start up, oh yeh baby.... The 2nd pic of the 2nd engine is of the turbo, to give ya some idea of size.

    <img src="http://members.iinet.net.au/~r6ual/pic/3516.jpg" alt=" - " />
    <img src="http://members.iinet.net.au/~r6ual/pic/3516a.jpg" alt=" - " />
    <img src="http://members.iinet.net.au/~r6ual/pic/3606.jpg" alt=" - " />

    <img src="http://members.iinet.net.au/~r6ual/pic/3606a.jpg" alt=" - " />

  24. #24
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    The XUD turbo engine (1.9 as used in 306, 405 etc) produces its maximum power at 4000rpm, max torque is 2250 rpm. Maximum speed is governed to 5150rpm. I was under the impression that the limiting factor of diesel engines in cars was that the fuel cannot physically burn fast enough within the cylinders to accelerate it much beyond 5000rpm.

  25. #25
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    R6ual
    <img src="http://members.iinet.net.au/~r6ual/pic/3516a.jpg" alt=" - " />
    The engine crane you're using is a tad small!


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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