Backfiring 504
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Backfiring 504

    I think I will try again. I have a 504 that backfires going down the hill near here. It also makes a rattling noise on acceleration. It is fuel injected. I have just purchased it and don't know much about its history.

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    Peter in Gisborne

  2. #2
    nJm
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    I suggest that you get it serviced. When I took delivery of my 505 GR (similar engine, except it has a carbie not fi) within 4 days I sent it off for a comprehensive service at the local pug place.

    The found a few things, and did other things I wouldn't think of like lubricate the steering rack to make the non-assisted steering lighter etc.

    Anyway, when I brought it home mine would backfire whenever you lift off the throttle - it was just the timing was out. Get it serviced, or do it yourself plus some basic stuff like replacing all the filters, HT leads and dissy cap if it needs it, especially if it didn't come with a service record.

    <small>[ 11 July 2002, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: nJm ]</small>
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    When you have it serviced ask them to check the operation of the advance mechanism in the distributor, these have a habit of jamming up if they have been neglected. frown
    Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten!

  4. #4
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    could be an idea to check the timing of the injection pump as well
    the advance slao does freeze up a bit on the older 504's as well
    another thing if you are a new TI owner make sure you keep a spare 1/4" inline filter in the car and at the first hint of a cough climb under the car and change the rear filter
    also purge and check the front filter under the bonnet located on the firewall near the altimeter around every 15000km's as well
    these cars have to have clean duel or they will play up big time
    another trick is to keep the plugs in good shape and run the correct coil on them
    they are a different coil from a normal carbie 504
    another good idea is to move the coil off the engine and place it on the inner guard
    it will last longer there
    vibrations kill coils and these engines vibrate really well
    they are a good car and run really well so long as they are looked after
    much better machine than a standard 504
    is it a genuine TI ?
    if so they had slightly different springs from the normal 504 as well
    from memory it should have A12 on the compliance plate
    dave would be able to verify this
    have fun
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  5. #5
    Tadpole
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    Thanks all who replied regarding my problem with backfiring. I had a quick word with the guys at French Connection here in Melb. They are just around the corner from my work. it looks like just a gasket where the exhaust pipe connects to the manifold. Pretty back leak by the look of it. They are also going to have a good look over it on Monday. I,m looking forward to some happy motoring with my '74 Pug. It is a GL model so I don't know if injection was available on this model.
    Thanks again all. wink
    Peter in Gisborne

  6. #6
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    Check for stuffed exhaust manifold gaskets, poor sealing of the exhaust allowing air to be sucked in on the overrun and backfiring. The rattle noise on acceleration could be a poorly attached and poorly fitted exhaust system allowing further leaks.
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  7. #7
    Simon's Avatar
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    That's weird, I didn't see the previous reply before mine!

    Happy motoring now the problem is fixed!
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  8. #8
    nJm
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    Yes, enjoy!

    One thing you HAVE to do is load it up with any friends who know nothing about old Pugs, then look for a rail-way crossing or speedbump and show them how well it takes them if you don't slow down

    I know mine couldn't believe it!
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    disappro disappro disappro disappro disappro
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  10. #10
    nJm
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    LOL.

    Coming from a an owner of a 1982 Celica I'll take that as a compliment mallet
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  11. #11
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    GLs weren't injected, so it's all been fitted later.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    What is the advance mechanism?

    Sorry just comming back to the forum.

    Mechanic said somethign about the advance mechanism.

    So I cleaner the distributor. Now the car will not start. Turns but no spark. Arghhhh

    Has any one stripped a 504 distrbutor and had problems after the fact?

    thanks

    James

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  13. #13
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    You have probably "shorted" the points. Check that the insulating washers for the points and condenser are in the right place. A multimeter will tell you this very quickly. Is your cap nice and clean and dry? Is there any dirt on the points? The advance mechanism will not cause the motor to backfire or any such thing. If it is not working the motor will just be very sluggish. Ignition systems are so cheap just "shotgun" the whole thing and replace everything if in doubt (excluding your "dizzy" if they are expensive).

  14. #14
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    did you put the rotor button back in ???
    i know this sounds silly but i have seen it done so many times before
    i had a friend that used to do NRMA roadside assistance and he lost count on how many times he would get called out to a roadside breakdown where the car wouldn't start only to find the rotor button sitting on the inner guard

    make sure that when you cleaned everything that the gap is set right on your points and that they aren't closed up
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply's.

    What are the positions for the carbon washers. I think that I put them back in the right places but I am not sure.

    Carbon washer between distributor body and outside nut. then another bewtween the wires for the capacitor and the coil? Should there be one between the coil and condensor wires?

    Does the condensor body need to be insulated? I don't see why but just asking.

    Also carbon washer on the bottom of the pivot post for the vacum advance mechanism. That little arm thingy?

    Are there any other carbon washers around that I forgot?

    Yeah I forgot the rotor the first couple of times blush

    Does anyone know where I can get a better breakdown of the distributor, other than the one in the haynes manual?

    The gap is set, everything is as clean as i can get it. Points set at top dead centre with the rod inserted at back of engine. Almost forgot to take the rod out a couple of times

    many thanks

    James
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  16. #16
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    The washers (they aren't carbon but usually a fibre composite) need to insulate the "hot" wire from coil so it goes "through the closed points and then goes to "earth". So the cicuit is this:
    Positive wire to coil - through the coil - to the points (not touching the distributor body) - to earth (the distributor body). The condenser joins the points lead were it goes through the distibutor body, this is the terminal with the washers and nuts on it, and it is not insulated from the lead but is insulated from the dizzy body. The "body" of the condenser goes to earth as it is screwed to the dizzy body.
    Hope this helps.

  17. #17
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    I can never remember if it is bosch or ducelier that have a gear and a worm arangement. Anyway that device if incorrectly set will make the car difficult to start.

    No spark? Check the coil directly. Then with its lead. Then through the cap and rotor button.

    Backfiring? Check the leads are on the dizzy in correct firing sequence. If you have set cam timming incorrectly that to will upset timming.

    From memory the wires from the points go to the Negative on the coil and the condensor goes to the dizzy body held by the retaining clip screw.

    Ohh gap for points is 16 thou 0.406mm

    What is the advance mechanism? It is basicly a piston in a cylinder. (Usually the piston is just a diaphram.)

    The connecting rod of which goes to the plate that the points sit on in the dizzy.

    The other end has a spring pushing on the piston. And a port that has a tube connected to the ported vacuum supply. Which is just on the airfilter side of the throttle blade. When the thottle is shut the ambient pressure is not sufficent to draw air from the Vacuum advance. However, as the throttle is partly opened the ambient pressure drops to about 10hg. atomosheric pressure on the oppsite side of the piston pushes. Pulling the points with it and so changing the point at which contact is made to fire the spark plugs.

    <small>[ 17 July 2003, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: PugMad ]</small>

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Backfiring going down hill? Classic exhaust leak situation.

    Won't fire after distributor clean? Remember the wire from the coil has to get to the points without touching anything that is earthed. Make sure that the "connector" dowesn't come in contact with the distributor body. The washers etc have to prevent any contact with it.

    Make sure that the points are gapped properly too! No gap when its on a lobe, no spark, no engine, no go.

    Finally, make sure that there isn't a film of oil or anything else under the "fixed" point.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  19. #19
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    ok
    i know this is going to be silly but KISS
    in the dissy cap is the little (can't think of the name of it for the life of me now) thing in the middle that keeps in contact with the rotor button still in the cap
    make sure it hasn't fallen out when you pulled the cap off
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    A big thanks to everyone.

    The connector point for the coil and condensor is insulated from the dizzy (easier and quicker to type so i shall use it too).

    The coil should be okay, i guess murphy's law but it was working fine yesterday.

    The point gap is set at .4mm and the dizzy is in the right position using the test light procedure.

    I agree that it has something to do with the earthing.

    the fixed point? U mean the point gap?

    I there a fibre washer under the vacum arm thingy?

    The cap is all there, and clean

    thanks

    James
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    By the "fixed point" I mean the one that you adjust (a bit contradictory really!) The one held in place by a screw, that you slacken to allow for adjustment. If you get a even a very light film of oil underneath it you sometimes get no spark.

    When you say "no spark" can you tell us where you have tested? Is there "no spark" across the points themselves when they open with the cap off (in which case we have to suspect that you have a problem with the low tension lead connection or the "oil film" problem mentioned above) , or did you test it at the end of a spark plug lead?

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 18 July 2003, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Is there a fibre washer under the vacuum arm thingy?

    Well, not were the vacuum advance meets the dizzy. Air has to be able to get in there so as to allow a pressure change across the piston.... Unless you have a turbo? were that side may be used to retard ignition on boost.

    And not were it connects to the plate the points sit on. (Called the "breaker assembly" PugMad.)

    Careful not drop the circlip into the dizzy it is a pain to have to rebuild!!

    The easy way to ajust the points is to put them at the top of the cam lobe closed. You can do this whilst you have the bar stuck in the flywheel notch. Then rotate the whole dizzy till it sparks at 4 degrees BTDC.

    See the mark on the crank pulley and the degree maker just above it. You may want to turn the engine to get the point off the cam so you can check the gap! But it comes out right more often than not.

    Rod IF your talking about insulating the condenser that is not nessary.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    AlsPug504:
    Rod IF your talking about insulating the condenser that is not nessary.
    No Als, I'm thinking of the arrangement of washers and the spacer on the screw where the low tension lead from the coil connects through the body of the distributor. It sounds as if this has been removed and then replaced. If, of course, the washers/spacer aren't in the right place then you can end up with a short here. Another possibility might be that the lead that is attached to the "moving" point, and attaches to the connector, is either shorting or broken.

    Essentially all I'm saying is the obvious! The "moving point" and everything between it and the coil LT, needs to be isolated from earth. The "fixed" point on the other hand must be fully earthed.

    That's why I want to know where the spark was checked. If we can establish that there is no decent spark at the points with the ignition on (just open them manually from a closed position with an insulated screwdriver if you like) then it directs us towards the LT side of operations (or, as I suggested, a problem with the earthing of the "fixed' point to the breakerplate or the breakerplate to the dizzy etc).

    If, however, there is a spark at the points, but not at a plug, then we look on the HT side of the equation. If there is spark at both, of course, we'd be thinking a timing issue.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 18 July 2003, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    so much good info.

    I have just come back from Splendor in the Grass at Byron Bay.

    FANTASTIC.

    Really wanted pug to be there

    Will tackle the dizzy this arvo and hopefully post back positive responce tommorrow

    thanks again

    James
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  25. #25
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Some of the ones I've seen who've had 'Splendor ON the Grass' at Byron Bay didn't need a dizzy to get them going; they looked pretty dizzy to start with. whistle whistle

    Alan S mallet
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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