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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    SR Engne Swap possibilities?+

    How much difficulty is there in transplanting a 505 executive injexted engine into an SR engine bay.
    I've heard the engine mounts rare different, if so how different. Is the difference engine or body fitment ? question

    Any guidence greatly appreciated, as I may-be able to get a good injected engine, this would solve alot of hassles. cry

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    Also, how complex is the auto-manual change-over.
    Is it all worth it?

    Chris.......

    P.S. I'll only accept 2 "stupid' downgrading replies..OK... mallet
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  2. #2
    nJm
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    I really have no idea what it would take to do it, but keep that if you use an EFI engine you'll have to deal with all the extra wiring, computer etc.

    A few people on this board actually prefer the SR's engine (seems to be more durable and flexible). Something to think about.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    orange17:
    How much difficulty is there in transplanting a 505 executive injexted engine into an SR engine bay.
    I've heard the engine mounts rare different, if so how different. Is the difference engine or body fitment ? question

    Any guidence greatly appreciated, as I may-be able to get a good injected engine, this would solve alot of hassles. cry

    Also, how complex is the auto-manual change-over.
    Is it all worth it?

    Chris.......

    P.S. I'll only accept 2 "stupid' downgrading replies..OK... mallet
    The engine mounts are different but they do not represent a challenge, as the sub-frame is identical. It's just a matter of swapping them over.

    The hardest bit would be the harness, as Nick commented. The injected motor (there are three - the iron 2l, the 2.2l alloy Douvrin with K-Jetronic mechanical injection, and the same thing with L-Jetronic EFI) has various electrical sensors and bits and pieces which need to be right or it won't run. The EFI version has a computer in the dash. You really need to remove and replace your harness to get it right.

    Also, with any injected motor you'll need the high-pressure electric fuel pump near your fuel tank, and it needs to be wired to come on when you turn the key to "crank" and switch off if the motor doesn't start but the key is left on. There's a relay switch that handles this.

    Finally, the Bosch injection gear has an air-flow meter mounted on the inner guard in front of the brake booster, and this entire mounting is absent on the non-injected cars, so you'll need to add it. It wouldn't be that hard, I imagine, but it needs to be in the right place or your plumbing won't fit.

    OK, having said all that, is the end result worth it? In my view, no, because the Douvrin motors are noisy, leaky, and under-powered. And the iron motors are reliable, quiet, and can be made to perform with a few judicious mods. See Dave McBean's site for some tips.

    Also, the Douvrin motors when mounted North-South are a nightmare to work on. (They are probably OK in a front-drive car.) The distributor is down under the inlet manifold where only an octopus could do anything useful with it. The fuel distribution head is mounted directly above the exhaust manifold, which gives me the heebie-jeebies. (Is that a word? I know it is a feeling!) This also means that your exhaust studs are difficult to get at. The fact that the air-flow meter is on the opposite side of the motor to the inlet manifold means long, ugly, plumbing and the anti-pollution garbage means almost-endless pieces of spaghetti hosing running all over the place.



    The auto-manual swap is pretty easy, I think. All the mounting points are already in place, so it is really a matter of bolting everything in and re-wiring your reversing light.

    Regards,
    John Lane
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    What's wrong with the original engine? Anything?

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies so far guys.

    Ray, there isn't anthing wrong with the current engine, save for the oil leak from the rear, possibly main seal. I gather it's a similar steup to the cross-flow renault blocks, with a rubber seal eaither side of the rear main bearing housing, with a large seal on the crank. The engine is tired, having done over 300,000 k's. I am just not sure what way to go to re-power the car. My wife does not want to get rid ofit. We could n't afford to replace it anyhow! She loves her 505.
    There are so many options, re-build the SR block, with mild cam and better carburettion, the fuel injection option, probably from 504ti, but they are hard to find. I will stay away from the later 2 or 2.2 litre engine. Would like to find a wrecked turbo deisel .
    head_ban One other option i'd like to explore is the possibility of a later auto box, with the lock up torque converter. Is this a good idea? Renaults are my thing..not Pug power-ups(as yet).
    Cheers, Chris
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    2001 Rx-4 Privilege
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    R20TS x 3
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    "When you hit the tree between the headlights thats understeer. Oversteer is when you hit the tree between the Tail Lights" - Wayne Bell

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'd go with the rebuild option. Even if it costs you a bit, it can't really cost any more than a change would do.

    Unless you stuck an early eighties carby engine in for the time being, and did the rebuild as you got time etc.

    But the best option, I think, is to remain standard. Though there was one of those engines running on LPG at the end of the RedEx re-run, I noted... but tank placement goes against that in a wagon.

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Oh, yeah.. the 4-speed auto box will require a different rear mount and shorter torque tube and tail shaft.

    And there's no seal on the rear of the crank. Sure, there are rubbers up each side of the main cap, but the rear crank sealing system is a slinger. I would look at your sump gasket...

  8. #8
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:

    Unless you stuck an early eighties carby engine in for the time being, and did the rebuild as you got time etc.

    But the best option, I think, is to remain standard. Though there was one of those engines running on LPG at the end of the RedEx re-run, I noted.
    Ray, the SR engine is a carby engine! I think you're thinking of the SLi engine.

    Dave
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  9. #9
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    It odds, it seems Pug people dont like the Douvrin, and Renault People love it! I wonder what Peugeot did to it to muck it up? I've had several in Fuegos, R21 and R25, and they are bloody great. Sure not the quietest motor about, but bullet proof, gutsy and economical. All have been mounted north south in Renaults (I think the only east west one was in the CX?) Beats the hell out of the old pushrod thing in 504/505s in my book (but its still a great engine, I loved my 504 LTi. Went like the clappers with a 2" exhaust in it!), much revvier and torquier.
    Can be modded more too, to go VERY hard.
    I would say if you can get a donor car with a healthy Douvrin in it ( for all the wiring etc, etc..), go for it, but otherwise if money is tight and you have to buy everything from a wrecker, rebuild the SR motor and play with it a bit as you do it.

  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by davemcbean
    <strong>Ray, the SR engine is a carby engine! I think you're thinking of the SLi engine.
    Right again, Dave...

    I always get confused with these late model designations.

    In this case then, Dave, what about we recommend a TI head and induction system and the injection system you were talking about in Parramatta the other day?

  11. #11
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    In this case then, Dave, what about we recommend a TI head and induction system and the injection system you were talking about in Parramatta the other day?
    The trouble with that is he has to be confident enough with electronics to put up with getting the bugs out of the system while he sets it up.

    On another note, I've got a good 404 rear seat (black) if you're interested Ray.

    Dave

    <small>[ 06 August 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
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  12. #12
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Haakon:
    Its odd, it seems Pug people dont like the Douvrin, and Renault People love it! I wonder what Peugeot did to it to muck it up? I've had several in Fuegos, R21 and R25, and they are bloody great. Sure not the quietest motor about, but bullet proof, gutsy and economical. All have been mounted north south in Renaults (I think the only east west one was in the CX?) Beats the hell out of the old pushrod thing in 504/505s in my book (but its still a great engine, I loved my 504 LTi. Went like the clappers with a 2" exhaust in it!), much revvier and torquier
    I've never heard of a Douvrin motor which will pull 6800rpm in 4th gear like many 504TIs do.

    I agree though that the good head design of the Douvrin engine gives it plenty of hot up potential. It's a pity more people haven't tried this in Australia. In Ecuador, the 2 litre OHC 505STI was made to produce around 200hp in touring car racing.

    Dave
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  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    There are some putting their store in the Douvrin engine. Owen has plans to put Haltec injection on one, but I'm not sure what car it's going into now...

  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    davemcbean
    [QBI've never heard of a Douvrin motor which will pull 6800rpm in 4th gear like many 504TIs do.

    Dave[/QB]
    Maybe not the longer stroke 2.2, but the 2.0 screams its head off quite happily! I think however, that the Douvrin would seriously benifit from being blueprinted and balanced. I suspect that they wernt as well put together as they could have been and the alloy block is not as stiff as it could be and lets it vibrate more. Just a thought.

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Rigidity can't be too bad... apparently one area where they are definitely ahead is in retention of head gaskets.

  16. #16
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Haakon:
    Maybe not the longer stroke 2.2, but the 2.0 screams its head off quite happily!
    Yeah I much prefered driving the 2 litre version of the Douvrin. It's a better motor. I think they had to make some unfortunate compromises regarding conrod length, etc, when they stroked the motor.

    The fact that the 2 litre was the engine they raced and also the engine that they later upgraded to 12V and turbo in the R21 also suggests it's got a better bottom end for performance than the 2.2 litre has.

    I reckon a 12V Fuego would have been just sweet.

    Dave
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    1994 106 Xsi
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  17. #17
    nJm
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    The earlier euro 505's had a 2L douvrin engine didn't they?

    If I remember correctly, the reason we were given the XN engine was so the car would already comply with the ADRs, rather than Peugeot having to get the new engine approved.

    From what I understand the Aussie spec 505 GR is basically a euro 505 ST with the 504 engine. I've been told that all 505's sold in the UK had powersteering (like all 505's in AUS have Aircon).

    <small>[ 06 August 2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: nJm ]</small>
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  18. #18
    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    davemcbean:
    Haakon:
    Maybe not the longer stroke 2.2, but the 2.0 screams its head off quite happily!
    Yeah I much prefered driving the 2 litre version of the Douvrin. It's a better motor. I think they had to make some unfortunate compromises regarding conrod length, etc, when they stroked the motor.

    The fact that the 2 litre was the engine they raced and also the engine that they later upgraded to 12V and turbo in the R21 also suggests it's got a better bottom end for performance than the 2.2 litre has.

    I reckon a 12V Fuego would have been just sweet.

    Dave
    I reckon you might be onto something there. Though the R21 Turbo crowd in the UK build a hybrid motor using a 2.2 block, TXi 12 valve head and all the Turbo gear. Makes for a seriously quick car.
    There is also a Fuego in France with a standard R21 Turbo motor in it - good for 240 kph. Yum.
    There is a "standard" motor R21 Quadra in the UK too, thats been a bit hotted up and pulls 0 - 100 kph in 4.6 seconds.

  19. #19
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    nJm:
    The earlier euro 505's had a 2L douvrin engine didn't they?
    Yeah, the 505TI and STI up until about 1982 had the 2 litre Douvrin, then they switched to the 2.2, although the UK and NZ stayed with the 2 litre STI until the advent of the GTI in 1984 for some reason, when they finally got the 2.2 litre.

    Australian built 505s were basically an SR without the power steering (until they started to actually sell the SR here). The early European GR only had a 4 speed gearbox and drum rear brakes. I think the early European SR also had drum rear brakes also, with the TI and STI being the only models to get rear discs.

    The North American 505STI up until about 1987 was much like our STI, except it had the XN6 motor. After that they went to the ZDJL.

    On the subject of the 2.2 litre Douvrin engine. In the US you could buy the Fuego and R18 with the 2.2 injected engine but it had a very restrictive camshaft for emissions reasons and only produced about 90hp. In Argentina they sold a 2.2 carby Fuego with 115hp.

    Dave

    <small>[ 07 August 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
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    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  20. #20
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Haakon:

    There is also a Fuego in France with a standard R21 Turbo motor in it - good for 240 kph. .
    I reckon the Fuego would have been just perfect with the 136hp 12V 2 litre (oh, and some better plastic trim and gauge needles wouldn't have hurt either ).

    I'm glad we never got the later style Fuego dashboard in Australia. They were pretty ugly.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  21. #21
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    How far do you reckon you could bore the 2-litre engine?

    Is the crank interchangeable between the 2-litre and 2.2 and is the bore larger?

    I feel a project coming on...

  22. #22
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    How far do you reckon you could bore the 2-litre engine?

    Is the crank interchangeable between the 2-litre and 2.2 and is the bore larger?

    I feel a project coming on...
    Which engine are you talking about? The OHC or the pushrod?

    The OHC engines all have the same 88mm bore. The 2 litre version has an 82mm stroke. The 2.2 has an 89mm stroke. Neither engine can be bored out a significant amount because the liners are relatively thin and the bore spacing is such that larger liners can not be fitted. Basically it as big as it can be internally for it's relatively compact exterior dimensions.

    If you're talking about the pushrod motor, the 100mm bore spacing and the thick block leave enough room to fit liners larger enough to take it out as far as about 93mm. The closest pistons I've found which meet all requirements (counterweight clearance, height, gudgeon, etc) are 1.5mm oversize flat top Mitsubishi 2.6 pistons which have a diameter of 92.6mm and would bring the pushrod motor up to 2182cc. For best headgasket sealing I recommend using a 1968-70 1.6 or 1.8 litre engine block for this conversion.

    The flat top Mitsubishi pistons have a compression height 2mm lower than the pushrod block deck height. Taking into account the larger capacity and the fact that most heads have been shaved by atleast 1mm, this gives a compression ratio around 8-8.5:1, so it's close to standard. If you want higher compression, then you have to deck the head more, deck the block or fill the combustion chambers a little. Take your pick.

    The Australian ACL manufactured Mitsubishi flat top pistons are a strong solid skirted design and are made of a more modern alloy than the 504 pistons so the piston weight is very close (about 600 grams including gudgeon pin). They cost about $250 per set and only require a tiny amount of filing to ensure counter weight clearance, unlike some other pistons. They also need to be modified to fit circlips to the gudgeon hole which most engine machine shops can do quite easily. The gudgeon pin diameter is 22m, so you can use either early 404 conrods, or fit 404 conrod bushes to 504/505 rods.

    If you compare the cost of this big bore conversion to a normal 504 piston and liner kit, it's about $500-$600 more ($1200-$1300 as opposed to about $700), providing the machining, etc, is done by a workshop in a poorer area (i.e you won't get it done this cheap on Sydney's North Shore). I priced the work at West End Performance in Campbelltown in Sydney's south west, where V8 driving lower paid people prevail. Here, 4 cylinder engine machining is as cheap as you can get anywere, because they're used to doing twice the machining on V8 motors for people who can't pay them very much.

    Dave

    <small>[ 07 August 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  23. #23
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    How are your efforts to gather a few 404 blocks going, Dave?

    I know that if I ever have to rebuild an engine to the extent that pistons and sleeves are required again, this will be my chosen path. Apart from the gain in capacity, I imagine the port size of the TI heads will be more compatible with the additional gas flow requirements.

    You didn't mention where the liners would come from in your post, though we've discussed this privately. Second hand liners with a slight rebore, they will be less expensive than new.

    I think I would favour decking the block rather than taking more off the head. A special head gasket would be required, I suppose. Might be a good time to dowel the head and gasket.

    But I was referring to the alloy engine, and you have answered that well... pity about that.

  24. #24
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    You didn't mention where the liners would come from in your post, though we've discussed this privately. Second hand liners with a slight rebore, they will be less expensive than new.

    I think I would favour decking the block rather than taking more off the head. A special head gasket would be required, I suppose. Might be a good time to dowel the head and gasket. .
    I plan to use Citroen 2175cc engine liners (from a CX2200 or DS21). These have an outside diameter of 106mm and a bore of 90mm. I plan to turn them down by about a mm or so, then mill one flat spot on them so that adjacent liners don't hit each other. They also have to be shortened and the bottom section which goes through the base of the water jacket has to be turned down to about 96mm. Any larger than approx 96.5mm and the liners get into the oil gallery which runs along the block.

    A custom headgasket typically costs about $100.

    I asked Richard Adams about a late 1.6 or early 1.8 engine block and he said he is going to keep an eye out for me. Ray, it's probably worth you letting him know you're after one also.

    Dave

    <small>[ 07 August 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  25. #25
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    I've got plenty of 404 blocks, including an XC7 block (with crank) if you want to fir 88mm pistons and do a short stroke 1800.
    Graham wallis

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