Blocked PCV valve?
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  1. #1
    nJm
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    Blocked PCV valve?

    For quite a while my 505 GR's oil dipstick has been popping up about an inch after driving the car, and this has resulted in oil splattering all over the left side of the engine bay. I think on a previous thread someone diagnosed this as the PCV valve. I was wondering how I go about unblocking it? There is no reference to it in the haynes manual.

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    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    High Nick. As you've indicated essentially the oil spattering is due to excessive crankcase pressure, but there isn't a conventional "PCV valve" (like the ones you find on Toyotas etc) on the XN motors.

    The excess pressure can be due to blocked crankcase gas recirc systems, or it can be due to a more fundamental problem (like excessive "blow by" because of failing rings or a cylinder head or valve problem).

    The most usual cause on an XN engined 504 or 505 is a blockage of the wire mesh filters in the crankcase "breather" (the thing with two clips holding the top down, where you put the oil in on some models, with a tube from the top leading back to the intake system).

    You need to wash both of the mesh filters (there should be one in the plastic/bakelite "top" piece, held in with a plastic disk with holes in it, and one in the alloy "oil filler" tube that it sits in. The plastic disc that hold in the filter in the "top piece" is fairly easy to break accidentally, but its not really a tragedy if you do.It will work without it.

    You can remove the one in the "filler tube" with a pair of long nose pliers.

    Once they have been removed, you'll find that each roll of mesh is held in shape with a nail. Just pull it out, unwind the mesh, wash it thoroughly in petrol, and blow it dry.

    Then replace.

    You should also check that the hoses and the crankcase breather fitting itself haven't become clogged. (you can remove the breather from the side of the engine by undoing a couple of 10mm (from memory) head size bolts.

    Remember when you are doing this stuff that any debris you dislodge can end up in the sump if you aren't careful!

    Some cars will also have a calibrated jet into the inlet side (Kjet injected motors do, not sure about the carby ones). This can get clogged too, and need cleaning.

    Excessive crankcase pressure from clogged breathers can lead to other problems, so its worth sorting it out.

    I'd be inclined to run a compression test on the motor too though. It could be a sign of something more serious, especially if you have been having other troubles (poor idling, less power than usual)

    Cheers

    Rod (back from Queensland again)
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  3. #3
    nJm
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    Thanks Rod. I'll start having a poke around.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  4. #4
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I've been running my Pug motors without any mesh in the filler or the cap, for years, without any side effects. I also only have the breather plumbed into the aircleaner, not the manifold.

    Dave
    1984 205 1360 GT twin carb motorkhana/cross special (stripped out, faster rack, 120lb/inch front springs)
    1991 205 SI with 1600GTI engine, GT front springs, GTi front brakes and arms
    1976 504 TI (Thames, NZ assembled)
    1978 504 TI (UK spec, French assembled with original power steer and big bore exhaust header)

  5. #5
    nJm
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    I might give that a go. I take it the purpose of the gauze was to prevent debris falling into the sump when you filled up the oil?
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  6. #6
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    nJm:
    I take it the purpose of the gauze was to prevent debris falling into the sump when you filled up the oil?
    My father says it's to filter out the gravel when Arab taxi drivers recycle their oil.


    Dave
    1984 205 1360 GT twin carb motorkhana/cross special (stripped out, faster rack, 120lb/inch front springs)
    1991 205 SI with 1600GTI engine, GT front springs, GTi front brakes and arms
    1976 504 TI (Thames, NZ assembled)
    1978 504 TI (UK spec, French assembled with original power steer and big bore exhaust header)

  7. #7
    nJm
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    Hahahahaha roll_lau
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  8. #8
    nJm
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    Ok, well I'm now beginning to wish I hadn't looked . The two gauze filter things were oozing with what can only be described as djon mustard cry . The entire PCV system seems to be filled with that horrible combination of water and oil. There is a small amount of white smoke at times from the exaughst, and the 1 month old rocker cover gasket is leaking from around cylinder 1 again. I'm beginning to wish I never looked under the bonnet dead .

    <small>[ 03 August 2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: nJm ]</small>
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  9. #9
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    nJm:
    The entire PCV system seems to be filled with that horrible comination of water and oil. There is a small amount of white smoke at times from the exaughst, and the 1 month old rocker cover gasket is leaking from around cylinder 1 again. .
    Those things can all be symptoms of a blocked breather. The excess pressure causes leaks and you get alot of condensation inside because the normal water vapors aren't sucked out.

    Ditch all the gauze and all those symptoms often disappear. Just make sure you clean the filler cap thoroughly so no left over gunk can fall into the sump.

    Dave
    1984 205 1360 GT twin carb motorkhana/cross special (stripped out, faster rack, 120lb/inch front springs)
    1991 205 SI with 1600GTI engine, GT front springs, GTi front brakes and arms
    1976 504 TI (Thames, NZ assembled)
    1978 504 TI (UK spec, French assembled with original power steer and big bore exhaust header)

  10. #10
    nJm
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    I'll see how it goes.

    Some of the piping for the PCV system appears to need replacing. The rubber hose that goes from the 'T' juntion above the filler cap to the driver's side of the carburettor (or is it actually on the engine? sort of hard to see at the moment) has a large split in it. The thick pipe that runs from the aircleaner isn't stuck on propperly as it doesn't have a hose clamp. I'll replace these tomorrow and see how it goes.

    Also, as the dipstick used to pop up all the time it is quite possible I got some water in the engine when degreasing the engine once....
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  11. #11
    Tadpole
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    it can be due to a more fundamental problem (like excessive "blow by" because of a cylinder head or valve problem
    I strongly disagree, the more I loko into this forum, the more I see ppl should have more of an understand of how engines work before they post their opinion on subjects, sorry Rod. No amount of head or valve issues is going to cause blow-by problems, unless you have head gasket issues, but thats a whoel differnt kettle of fish. nJm, I dont know what sort of engines pug puts out, but in my experience, no engine should have mayo on any part of it. What ur seeing is a combo of oil and water over a fair period of time. I'd start looking at water pump, possible head gasket failure (have you had coolant loss?) Davemcbean, I don't agree with ditching the gaze, cause why get rid of something that might be waring you of something 'down the road', preventative maintainence, gotta love it...

  12. #12
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    The gauze is to prevent oil sloshing up the filler tube and then sucked into the PCV system and into the intake. A 404 wagon in the Redex had this problem, plenty of smoke in the speed events until the gauze was reinstalled.
    Talking of PCV sytems, my new rally 404 was suffering from lean running on the primary barrel (early 2 litre). It had been fitted with a 404 style valve and was sucking too much air.
    Fitting a 504 style restrictor solved the problem and smoothed out the idle.

    Graham Wallis

  13. #13
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    [quote]R6ual:
    nJm, I dont know what sort of engines pug puts out, but in my experience, no engine should have mayo on any part of it. What ur seeing is a combo of oil and water over a fair period of time. .
    Look, you could be right, but since you say you've got no experience with these engines then how can you say what I've suggest can't possibly occur? I've seen bad crankcase ventilation cause mayonaise in the breather on atleast two of these engines. When the breather was unblocked the engines did many tens of thousands of kms without the problem reoccurring.

    Yes, a blown headgasket is most often the cause of mayonaise in the breather, BUT not always!

    I've done 100s of thousands of kms with these engines without the original gause in the breather without any problems, although I usually have some kind of foam or mesh before it enters the air filter, but not always. I give these engine heaps EVERY day and if I was going to get problems I would have.

    What Graham mentioned can happen, and it is for this reason that I never plump the breather into the manifold.

    On high reving racing engines they don't plump the breather into the intake at all, because of the octane lowering effect that oil vapour has in the intake charge.

    R6ual, please, if, as you said, you don't have experience with theses engines then don't knock comments by people who do.

    Dave

    <small>[ 15 August 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    1984 205 1360 GT twin carb motorkhana/cross special (stripped out, faster rack, 120lb/inch front springs)
    1991 205 SI with 1600GTI engine, GT front springs, GTi front brakes and arms
    1976 504 TI (Thames, NZ assembled)
    1978 504 TI (UK spec, French assembled with original power steer and big bore exhaust header)

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    R6ual:
    it can be due to a more fundamental problem (like excessive "blow by" because of a cylinder head or valve problem
    I strongly disagree, the more I loko into this forum, the more I see ppl should have more of an understand of how engines work before they post their opinion on subjects, sorry Rod. No amount of head or valve issues is going to cause blow-by problems, unless you have head gasket issues, but thats a whoel differnt kettle of fish. nJm, I dont know what sort of engines pug puts out, but in my experience, no engine should have mayo on any part of it. What ur seeing is a combo of oil and water over a fair period of time. I'd start looking at water pump, possible head gasket failure (have you had coolant loss?) Davemcbean, I don't agree with ditching the gaze, cause why get rid of something that might be waring you of something 'down the road', preventative maintainence, gotta love it...
    If you feel like slagging off, R6, then I suggest you at least have the decency to quote what I say correctly.

    You will notice that my words were actually
    "The excess pressure can be due to blocked crankcase gas recirc systems, or it can be due to a more fundamental problem (like excessive "blow by" because of failing rings or a cylinder head or valve problem).
    Blow by is commonly found in engines with worn rings and, believe it or not, excessive crankcase pressure can also be caused by cylinder head or valve problems. Cylinder head cracks can readily cause gas leakage from the combustion chambers into the oil system and valve problems can result in leakage into the rocker cover which is effectively "open" to the crankcase".

    "Mayo" in XN6 Peugeot engines is actually pretty common, especially when the breather system hasn't been kept clean. The problem is often compounded in these motors by leaks in the seals at the base of the wet cylinder liners and / or head gasket problems. Its most unlikely to result from water pump problems in these motors. The water pump isn't directly associated with any of the oil conduits.

    Not sure how many Peugeot motors you've taken apart, but, if it was many I'm sure you would have appreciated most of the above.

    I agree with you about the mesh though, primarily because the recirc system on these motors can develop a fair amount of hardened carbon deposit within it. The hoses also become brittle over time. The mesh filter stops such things falling into the sump.

    But next time you want to quote me, quote me right!

    Cheers

    Rod
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  15. #15
    Tadpole
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    Didnt relise we were splitting hairs here but fair enuf... So we're obviously talking about cracks in the fly-cut area?? if not then I'm struggling for other places combustion gas can enter a crankcase via the head. I dont slag off, I'm here to find decent intelligent conversation about engines, I cant see how its a problem throwing my 2 cents worth in. If you're talking about blowby being caused by wear to the valve guides, then yeh, I agree high blowby, but I hope the cops haven't pulled you over yet for the amount of smoke you must blowing. Do you guys measure you're blow-by, we, as a standard, measure 1.2 times the hp for a reading. i.e. 430 hp truck engine, 500 cu.ft/hr is acceptable. The spec is for high idle, NOT rated load. Obviously expect much higher readings, but not neccessarily, at full load. I do apologise Rod, I was trying to point out the bits i disagreed with, not to misquote you.

    <small>[ 16 August 2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: R6ual ]</small>

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    R6ual:
    Didnt relise we were splitting hairs here but fair enuf... So we're obviously talking about cracks in the fly-cut area?? if not then I'm struggling for other places combustion gas can enter a crankcase via the head. I dont slag off, I'm here to find decent intelligent conversation about engines, I cant see how its a problem throwing my 2 cents worth in. If you're talking about blowby being caused by wear to the valve guides, then yeh, I agree high blowby, but I hope the cops haven't pulled you over yet for the amount of smoke you must blowing. Do you guys measure you're blow-by, we, as a standard, measure 1.2 times the hp for a reading. i.e. 430 hp truck engine, 500 cu.ft/hr is acceptable. The spec is for high idle, NOT full load. Obviously expect much higher readings, but not neccessarily, at full load. I do apologise Rod, I was trying to point out the bits i disagreed with, not to misquote you.
    I was actually talking about "blow by" in connection with the rings, R6, as you will see if you re-read what I actually wrote, but suggesting that cylinder head and valve problems in Peugeot XN6 motors can also lead to higher than usual crankcase pressure.

    Peugeot XN engines have a hemi chambered alloy head sitting on a cast iron block, with wet cylinder liners and push rods . They have evolved from a bored out version of a motor that started life in 1947 with a capacity of 1290cc, gradually increase to 2 litres.

    Yes, it changed a lot over the years to enable it to cope, but one of the consequences of its growth is comparative fragility of some aspects of the head, and increased demands on the head gasket coupled with the ever greater proximity of oil, coolant and the combustion process.

    These motors, by the way, are extremely reliable, but when problems happen they often result from such things. Essentially any defect that allows combustion products or volatile material into the oil system can lead to increased crankcase pressure. In fact , even a burnt out valve or a dead spark plug can ultimately result in increased crankcase pressure through gradual dilution of oil by unburnt fuel.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 26 August 2003, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  17. #17
    nJm
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    I've learnt quite a bit about the XN motors in this thread.

    today I had another poke around, despite replacing the hose that runs from the oil filler to the manifold (?), I'm still getting 'mayo' in the filler, although no longer on the dipstick. Despite having replaced the rocker cover gasket a month ago it is seriously leaking from around cylinder 1 (firewall side). However, it almost looks like the oil is leaking from the groove between the top of the rocker cover and the support for the air filter unit (hope you know what I mean).

    I'm taking my car into the mechanics on Monday to get the carb tweaked so I'll get his opinion on all this, as I find it a little hard describing the problems due to my lack of knowledge on these matters.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  18. #18
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    Nick, BTW, lots of short trips in cold weather can also give you 'mayo', simply because the engine doesn't run at temperature long enough to evaporate the minor condensation you get in the crankcase.

    Stuey

    1991 PEUGEOT 405 Mi16

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Stuey:
    Nick, BTW, lots of short trips in cold weather can also give you 'mayo', simply because the engine doesn't run at temperature long enough to evaporate the minor condensation you get in the crankcase.

    Stuey
    Yes, and with the "high condensation" weather we get at this time of the year in Melbourne, in fact, its pretty common in mild to moderate doses, especially when coupled with "breathing" issues.

    My major concern would be the high crankcase pressure (though, if you have been doing a lot of stop start stuff and an oil change is due, it could simply be due to the condensation too) , if its still a problem, especially if you are having any other "issues" (low power, erratic running, fouling spark plugs etc). The simple thing to do is to have a compression test.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 19 August 2003, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  20. #20
    nJm
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    Turns out the rocker cover wasn't leaking. The oil was dripping out of the air filter housing! I took it out and when I opened it oil started dripping onto the ground. I assume the oil shouldn't be pumped into the air filter?? I've replaced all the hoses and cleaned out the pipes and replaced the top gauze (left the bottom one out) so I'll see how it goes, but I think I better find someone with a compression tester as Rod suggested.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    My sister does mainly short running in her 504....mainly 20km round trips to and from Uni.

    Never see a drop of mayo in her oil filler or anywhere else!

    Car never gets that warm as I say she does 10km there and 10km back...

    Ben
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  22. #22
    nJm
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    Oh yeah, my mechanic suggested I change from 15w50 oil to 20w60!
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Nick, A major by product of petrol combustion, is water. Even new engines, have some blowby which will deposit small amounts of water into the sump. This is one reason for crankcase recirculation, if it's not functioning correctly, the hot oil vapor, combines with the water vapor to form the mayo sludge. This mixture is evidenced severly in early VW 1200 cc engines, as they have no crankcase breathin system at all. This sludge completely blocks the 300mm odd, 40mm diameter oil filler tube. My father, had Kombi vans for 25yrs & this was always a problem and it couldn't be blamed on water jacket leaks.

    By the way, i have a compression tester & your welcome to come to my place & check the compressin on your motor, it only takes 1/2 an hour or so. Send me a message if you wish to do the test.
    cheers!
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  24. #24
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    Pug_405_Mi16:
    My sister does mainly short running in her 504....mainly 20km round trips to and from Uni.

    Never see a drop of mayo in her oil filler or anywhere else!

    Car never gets that warm as I say she does 10km there and 10km back...

    Ben
    Ten kays is probably long enough to avoid it. We're talking 'down to the train station' type trips, a couple of kays.

    <small>[ 25 August 2003, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Stuey ]</small>

    1991 PEUGEOT 405 Mi16

  25. #25
    nJm
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    Which I do twice a week.

    Then on other week days it gets me to uni and back, about a 20min round trip.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

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