Pug Owners Need A Cold Shower?
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  1. #1
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    Default Pug Owners Need A Cold Shower?

    There is definitely something about the roadholding, braking and general feel of all French cars. Warren[/QUOTE]



    Sorry but I think we need a little more analysis here please about why some people, indeed quite a lot (3000 on this forum), have ...I don't know, a certain "je ne sais quois" about french cars!

    Now, I can see how people with a love for machinery/design get attached to the older pugs (because they are antiques). And I can see how some folk get attached to the Pug-legends such as the 404 and the hot hatches (because they are legends) but ... the odd thing is that pugmania (is there any other name for it) seems to afflict buyers of newer pugs!

    Don't get me wrong! There's no harm in this but are some of us kidding ourselves about the lion's mythical status? And this issue has been partly thrashed out in the "Pug Protocol Thread" where, to digress for a second, an apparent contradiction is emerging. Puggers are complaining about other "snooty puggers" not giving them a pugwave, and in the same breath, protest about dealers selling other marques with the Peugeot! Like, "snootiness is fine so long as I'm not on the receiving end"!

    But back to my point, which I'm just about to make, perhaps for many of us, we go silly about Pugs not so much because the pug is anything special but simply because WE CHOSE TO BUY ONE? If we'd bought a VW Bora instead, would we be on VW Bora sites? I like the way my 307 handles but apparently a base Focus handles better as does, perhaps a Mazda3, and a BMW 1 would kick sand in its grill. So, every now and again (but not very often) I bring myself down to earth!

    Some motoring journos have described the Peugeot following as "fiercely loyal", "fanatical" but ... I want to know why and is it really justified. As posts in other threads have suggested, perhaps the Pug magic stopped at the 306? And if it did, what exactly was that "magic"? Was it just a particularly good handling car that didn't have too many competitors in that department but now... all the brands have caught up and alas...Peugeot is just ... another good in the shop that consumers buy because of its shape or if its got air-con or not?

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    Last edited by lucamote2005; 22nd January 2005 at 01:09 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Simple test

    I drive to work on Sunday Night and get in a Daihatsu Charade for around 12 hrs. Then I get in the 206 GTi for 30 min trip back home.
    That is enough to tell me their is a diference.

    I know they are not in the same leaugue however I do drive a variety of Japanese cars on jobs I that do some a lot newer than the 406, and none come close to the DRIVE of my Peugeots (206, 406).

    Graelin

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    Some if it maybe childhood memories (we had DS's, renaults 12, 18 etc) but for us the Peugeot met our requrements perfectly at the time .. in 2 years the situation maybe different and we'll pick another car, the question is .. will we love it the same, time will tell, but I can't see myself ever being passionate about a Foulcandoor or something of similar ilk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucamote2005
    Sorry but I think we need a little more analysis here please about why some people, indeed quite a lot (3000 on this forum), have ...I don't know, a certain "je ne sais quois" about french cars!

    Now, I can see how people with a love for machinery/design get attached to the older pugs (because they are antiques). And I can see how some folk get attached to the Pug-legends such as the 404 and the hot hatches (because they are legends) but ... the odd thing is that pugmania (is there any other name for it) seems to afflict buyers of newer pugs!

    Don't get me wrong! There's no harm in this but are some of us kidding ourselves about the lion's mythical status? And this issue has been partly thrashed out in the "Pug Protocol Thread" where, to digress for a second, an apparent contradiction is emerging. Puggers are complaining about other "snooty puggers" not giving them a pugwave, and in the same breath, protest about dealers selling other marques with the Peugeot! Like, "snootiness is fine so long as I'm not on the receiving end"!

    But back to my point, which I'm just about to make, perhaps for many of us, we go silly about Pugs not so much because the pug is anything special but simply because WE CHOSE TO BUY ONE? If we'd bought a VW Bora instead, would we be on VW Bora sites? I like the way my 307 handles but apparently a base Focus handles better as does, perhaps a Mazda3, and a BMW 1 would kick sand in its grill. So, every now and again (but not very often) I bring myself down to earth!

    Some motoring journos have described the Peugeot following as "fiercely loyal", "fanatical" but ... I want to know why and is it really justified. As posts in other threads have suggested, perhaps the Pug magic stopped at the 306? And if it did, what exactly was that "magic"? Was it just a particularly good handling car that didn't have too many competitors in that department but now... all the brands have caught up and alas...Peugeot is just ... another good in the shop that consumers buy because of its shape or if its got air-con or not?

    lets look at this on multiple fronts. Yes there is many a good story that comes from Peugeots past, Peugeot from it's beginnings in motor sport has always produced top class cars with results to back it up (cars not engines, we won't go into the modern F1 debacle, and we can say that these cars dynamically are not designed by Peugeot). The motor soirt heritage of Peugeot is legendry, especially and including one of my favorite stories where a Peugeot 504, came second only to a Porsche in the London to Sydney marathon... now honestly let's stop and consider the types of cars that enter these events for a second, and you can truly see but one story that makes Peugeot as an engineer of motor cars legendary.

    ok that said, have you stopped to take any of these cars for a drive, or are you basing your Peugeot driving experience on only driving a 307. If that is the cae, most of the points you have made are moot.

    yes Peugeots have changed, if you took any Peugeot for a drive pre 06 model and including 09 model you would realize the different nature of the beast.

    to put it this way, even driving a bog standard 1.8l 8v 306 XR feels like you are driving a reasonably sporty hatchback.

    and another issue, yes there will be bias here, after all it is a French car forum. I'm sure that if you went to a forum for Honda civics, Toyota corollas, or VW Golfs you would get a biased opinion about how much better there car is then a Peugeot 307.

    some of us like to look at what makes PSA one of the greatest motor sport companies, and how that correlates back to the road going counterparts.

    like i said in my previous pots in the aforementioned post, Peugeot (or at least used to) take ordinary components and fine tune them for what would be a hard to go past ride quality and handling characteristics. Nothing special or out of the ordinary, just good design using ordinary components. This is something the 307 lacks

    i'm sorry if this makes no sense Iíve been working all night
    Last edited by orestes; 22nd January 2005 at 05:20 AM.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    I own two 504's and a 307 ....

    I agree with your point ... I think it is good that Pug owners keep their feet on the ground. My point of view is that I have a personal passion for the 504's and have owned five of them over the years. I enjoy their design, their durability and uniqueness. I am impressed with the approx 12 year production run available in Oz and still going overseas. I am familiar with the mechanics and can do most things myself which I also enjoy. Most of all I just enjoy the driving experience. It is a personal thing.

    However I wouldn't be so foolish as to say that it is the greatest car on the planet because my judgement of such an issue is obvioulsy clouded by my passion for the car. I also appreciate another man's passion for a different car. I have a mate who loves the old "cyclops" Rovers and I can respect and share his passion for that car, and he vice versa with me. However we don't get into arguments over which is the best car. Make comparisons ... yes. Judgements .... no. That sort of stuff does make Pug fanatics look silly.

    I enjoy driving my 307 as well, however I am fully aware of its faults and that it is probably not in the category of the best made cars around. I have the HDI and the fuel economy aspect is something special. That means I like the car and have a passion for it. But I would not be getting into any arguments about it being the best hatch around.

    Cars are complex machines with so many factors going into what makes it a good car. One may have brilliant suspension and ride whilst the the door handle fall off every time you close the door. I struggle with the idea that anybody can make judgements about what is the best car around because of all these variables and the individual nature of likes / dislikes and different mechanical understandings and appreciations of any vehicle.

    Anyhow I like my 504's. That's my

    Peter J.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    I own two 504's and a 307 ....

    I agree with your point ... I think it is good that Pug owners keep their feet on the ground. My point of view is that I have a personal passion for the 504's and have owned five of them over the years. I enjoy their design, their durability and uniqueness. I am impressed with the approx 12 year production run available in Oz and still going overseas. I am familiar with the mechanics and can do most things myself which I also enjoy. Most of all I just enjoy the driving experience. It is a personal thing.

    However I wouldn't be so foolish as to say that it is the greatest car on the planet because my judgement of such an issue is obvioulsy clouded by my passion for the car. I also appreciate another man's passion for a different car. I have a mate who loves the old "cyclops" Rovers and I can respect and share his passion for that car, and he vice versa with me. However we don't get into arguments over which is the best car. Make comparisons ... yes. Judgements .... no. That sort of stuff does make Pug fanatics look silly.

    I enjoy driving my 307 as well, however I am fully aware of its faults and that it is probably not in the category of the best made cars around. I have the HDI and the fuel economy aspect is something special. That means I like the car and have a passion for it. But I would not be getting into any arguments about it being the best hatch around.

    Cars are complex machines with so many factors going into what makes it a good car. One may have brilliant suspension and ride whilst the the door handle fall off every time you close the door. I struggle with the idea that anybody can make judgements about what is the best car around because of all these variables and the individual nature of likes / dislikes and different mechanical understandings and appreciations of any vehicle.

    Anyhow I like my 504's. That's my

    Peter J.
    Love the 504. I like it and i respect other peoples opinions on cars.

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    Icon1 307 vs. Focus handling

    I'm driving a 307 XSE Touring 2.0 and a Focus LX 2.0. The Focus does not have better handling. The Focus is a beautiful car to drive with an excellent engine but the 307 does a better job in most departments. The 307 accellerates, handles and takes corners much better than the Focus. The 307 brakes more easily. The Focus feels unresponsive in comparison with the 307.

    When in the Focus, I will hang back on slopes and curves to some degree, while the 307 gives me complete confidence in the same situation. I think that reflects in the passenger experience in such conditions as well. The Focus is the kind of car that will glide around the block very nicely, doesn't ask you to use the accellerator much, but you do have to hit the brakes pretty hard to stop it.

    The Focus is a nice car, but when comparing with the 307 nice isn't enough. The Focus has a number of design faults (e.g. faulty fuel gauge, leaking windscreen, air vents wont stay fully open, faulty power socket for accessories, power windows wont operate when parked facing up a hill). The 307 demands more attention from its driver, but provides a more satisfying driver experience (to someone like me anyway). I'm hooked.
    '04 307 XSE Touring Auto - Diablo Red
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    lets look at this on multiple fronts. Yes there is many a good story that comes from Peugeots past, Peugeot from it's beginnings in motor sport has always produced top class cars with results to back it up (cars not engines, we won't go into the modern F1 debacle, and we can say that these cars dynamically are not designed by Peugeot). The motor soirt heritage of Peugeot is legendry, especially and including one of my favorite stories where a Peugeot 504, came second only to a Porsche in the London to Sydney marathon... now honestly let's stop and consider the types of cars that enter these events for a second, and you can truly see but one story that makes Peugeot as an engineer of motor cars legendary.

    ok that said, have you stopped to take any of these cars for a drive, or are you basing your Peugeot driving experience on only driving a 307. If that is the cae, most of the points you have made are moot.

    yes Peugeots have changed, if you took any Peugeot for a drive pre 06 model and including 09 model you would realize the different nature of the beast.

    to put it this way, even driving a bog standard 1.8l 8v 306 XR feels like you are driving a reasonably sporty hatchback.

    and another issue, yes there will be bias here, after all it is a French car forum. I'm sure that if you went to a forum for Honda civics, Toyota corollas, or VW Golfs you would get a biased opinion about how much better there car is then a Peugeot 307.

    some of us like to look at what makes PSA one of the greatest motor sport companies, and how that correlates back to the road going counterparts.

    like i said in my previous pots in the aforementioned post, Peugeot (or at least used to) take ordinary components and fine tune them for what would be a hard to go past ride quality and handling characteristics. Nothing special or out of the ordinary, just good design using ordinary components. This is something the 307 lacks

    i'm sorry if this makes no sense Iíve been working all night

    The best a 504 did in a London Sydney Marathon was 3rd in the 1993
    25th Anniversary Rerun. Porsche was first and the same Falcon that was third in 1968 came 2nd, driven by the same driver, Ian Vaughan. He reckons he will come first if they hold a 50th anniversary rerun!
    In 1977 a 504 came 5th in a L-S marathon after a lot of bad luck and having the section to Warri Gate in Far North NSW deleted after it set fastest time by a considerable margin. Evan Green (driving a Range Rover) wrote a description of how they were passed by Dunkerton driving the 504, seems he was both very impressed and pissed off!!

    The best result for the 504 sedan is normally held to be the East African Safari victory in 1975 but for my money the best was the win in the 1976 Morrocan Rally. This was a faster event and had a lot more top line competition.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    The best a 504 did in a London Sydney Marathon was 3rd in the 1993
    25th Anniversary Rerun. Porsche was first and the same Falcon that was third in 1968 came 2nd, driven by the same driver, Ian Vaughan. He reckons he will come first if they hold a 50th anniversary rerun!
    In 1977 a 504 came 5th in a L-S marathon after a lot of bad luck and having the section to Warri Gate in Far North NSW deleted after it set fastest time by a considerable margin. Evan Green (driving a Range Rover) wrote a description of how they were passed by Dunkerton driving the 504, seems he was both very impressed and pissed off!!

    The best result for the 504 sedan is normally held to be the East African Safari victory in 1975 but for my money the best was the win in the 1976 Morrocan Rally. This was a faster event and had a lot more top line competition.
    Graham
    ok i forgot about the falcon, but yeah a memorable result

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardhayward
    I'm driving a 307 XSE Touring 2.0 and a Focus LX 2.0. The Focus does not have better handling. The Focus is a beautiful car to drive with an excellent engine but the 307 does a better job in most departments. The 307 accellerates, handles and takes corners much better than the Focus. The 307 brakes more easily. The Focus feels unresponsive in comparison with the 307.

    When in the Focus, I will hang back on slopes and curves to some degree, while the 307 gives me complete confidence in the same situation. I think that reflects in the passenger experience in such conditions as well. The Focus is the kind of car that will glide around the block very nicely, doesn't ask you to use the accellerator much, but you do have to hit the brakes pretty hard to stop it.

    The Focus is a nice car, but when comparing with the 307 nice isn't enough. The Focus has a number of design faults (e.g. faulty fuel gauge, leaking windscreen, air vents wont stay fully open, faulty power socket for accessories, power windows wont operate when parked facing up a hill). The 307 demands more attention from its driver, but provides a more satisfying driver experience (to someone like me anyway). I'm hooked.
    I've driven both the base model Focus and the 307 xsi, and I have to say the bog stock Focus has fantastic handling, and I found much better than the supposedly slightly sporty 307 xsi. The Focus st170 is much better still, but I guess you'd expect that because it is hot version. Am still surprised at how well the supermarket version Focus handled with fantastic ride as well, much better than everything else in its class. The 307 xsi rode quite harshly, wouldn't have thought that of a pug, and had quite terrible plough understeer when pushed. I actually drove both these cars (and a toyota corolla, which was really crap) back to back as a friend was considering one of these three so we went test driving. He was just looking for a base model car, but the dealership only had the xsi to lend. He ended up getting the Focus LX 2litre. I have to agree about the focus engine, quite lethargic.
    Take the long way home....

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardhayward
    The Focus has a number of design faults (e.g. air vents wont stay fully open)
    Did you find this was case when the aircon / ventilation fans was turned on? My brothers Focus had this problem whenever the aircon was turned on, the centre vents go from open to close (or vice versa I can't remember), caused entirely by the air flow. It was supposedly fixed under warranty.

    Troy.

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    Fellow Frogger! Westair's Avatar
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    You have put it exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Personally I'm not a French car,or indeed Peugeot,fanatic.I bought the 505 when I returned from NZ because I had limited funds to spend on a car and I wanted something well engineered,that was built as a driver's car with IRS and a 5 speed box.From my perspective this meant either a 505 or a BMW 3-series of similiar vintage.The Pug got the nod because a good one came up at a reasonable price.It's a good old bus and fun to chuck around.The weighting of the power steering is very good and the handling is well balanced and predictable.So far it's been reliable and it's comfortable on long trips and pretty good on juice.Basically,I like it.
    However,when I was in NZ I was able to take advantage of the tariff-free car market,which gives you a lot more scope.My last car over there was a 1991 Nissan Skyline R32 GTS-4.
    These are also well engineered,reliable,have VERY good handling and,last but not least,GO LIKE HELL!!!
    They are,in my admittedly biased opinion,a bloody brilliant car and I'd buy another one without hesitation if I had the cash.
    505 STi-The only acceleration is lateral!

  14. #14
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    Icon1 Focus VS 307

    Quote Originally Posted by TroyO
    Did you find this was case when the aircon / ventilation fans was turned on?
    Yes this is the case for the centre vents, the setting moves after you turn it on to half way so you can't have these vents turned fully on.

    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    Am still surprised at how well the supermarket version Focus handled with fantastic ride as well, much better than everything else in its class.
    I agree the ride in the Focus is excellent, but the handling in my view is much better in the 307 after having taken both cars on long drives such as up the mountains, and on the Great Ocean Road. In my view the 307 is clearly a class above the Focus, and I feel in comparison much more of a driver's car which allows you to enjoy the drive much more, with a greater sense of control.

    A point against the 307 due to the dipping rear after the rear wheels go over a bump. The Focus does handle the bumps better.

    Coincidence is that we're saying goodbye to the Focus at the end of the week as the lease is up. Glad to say we will still have the 307 in the garage! Incidentally, I didn't really form an opinion about the 307 on the test drive - I was happy with it. It probably took a week of driving before I started to appreciate the 307.
    '04 307 XSE Touring Auto - Diablo Red
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    Just to support jesters comment that you never really get to know a Peugeot by just going on a test drive.

    Many years ago there was a very wise Peugeot dealer in Wangaratta (Vic). He would often lend his demonstrator Peugeot (504) for a weekend or more, if in his judgement, the prospects were genuine.

    On one occasion, he had a client (a local doctor) who was interested in a 504 TI. He had a medical conference to attend in Adelaide, so was given the 504 TI for his trip. Returning some days later, he signed up for a new 504TI.

    The bonus for the dealer was that his client had two other medical colleagues accompany him on the Adelaide trip, and they also ordered a 504 TI each!!

    Many other Peugeot dealers (especially rural) in those days used the same philosophy to win the business. I doubt whether this is the case today.

    My wife and I have just returned from visiting family in Geelong. In 8 days we covered 3,100 km in our '84 505 Executive. For comfort, economy, space & reliability, we could not have asked for more. And for a car that has now travelled over 408,000 km, it uses no water or oil. Pretty much what we have got used to over many years of Peugeot ownership.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

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    All Peugeots have now is fashion. By their own admission, Peugeot's strategy is release a new model every 6 or 18 months or something... Not only are they poorly conceived and assembled, the parts are expensive. How much time does that leave for testing? I'd call the modern ones 'French Fords'. As evidence, look at resale values.

    Technology and features become a big liability if it's only been slapped together. Your just buying an expensive problem for the future.

    The only Peugeots I'd buy are gti 206 (performance) or hdi 307 (economy), but even those are not the most convincing buys.

    Peugeots *used* to be well built, and have always had good suspension, but lets face it we only compare them to Fords and Holdens because Australian's haven't been able to afford BMWs and Mercs in the past, so we're not exactly setting a high standard.

    My parents have had 1968 404, 1969 404, 1984 505sti, 604. Currently have 405srdt. I have had 205gti S1 and 205gti S2(or maybe 1.5). The 404's were great, simple and reliable, our family had them for 15 years and 25 years respectively. Everything more recent is just a problem, except for my 205's which made up for it by being fun.

    I feel sorry for people who buy new Pugs and Renaults (other than performance types of course).

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    I drive Peugeots now (and Renaults previously - before they left Australia)because of what they are. They are a compromise.

    I have never owned a new car. I would love to do so, but to spend big dollars on a depreciating asset is a luxury that my family cannot aford.
    And what a compromise they are!

    Price,power,size,prestige,economy,handling,comfort ,safety,reliability,durabilityand innovation are just some of the design parameters for all cars. You can get more or less of any single factor from a range of manufacturers.
    What you get in a Peugeot or Renault is a balance that is stacked in favour of the driver,owner and occupants.

    I recently drove automatic versions of the following; 406 sedan, Clio and Megane. The 406 was sedate and sensual. Renault have not lost their willingness to innovate in a way that makes sense - especially in terms of efficient use of use of space.

    When I reflect on my previous "fleet', the same themes/compromises are evident. These manufactrers are sensitive to the needs of the people that buy,drive,ride in and own the vehicle. They are treated wiyh respect.

    We have owned Renault's of the following types; 4,5,6,10,16,and 20.
    We have owned Peugeot's 504 (wagon) 505 (sedan and wagon) and 405 (sedan). Is there a Citroen in my future?

    I most regret selling my R5, because it was fun. Any trip was was a joy because it was so responsive to the driver. A sun-roof that was a metre square was a bonus!

    I must get my R4 van on the road again because every trip was a laugh and an adventure. Design rules of this day and age do blunt the driving sensation that a Renault R4 delivers.

    The smile that the R4 and R5 give (for very different reasons) lasts long after the drive is finished.

    Yes, I think that a car may be more than its collective parts. In my experience these cars are French.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlions
    All Peugeots have now is fashion. By their own admission, Peugeot's strategy is release a new model every 6 or 18 months or something... Not only are they poorly conceived and assembled, the parts are expensive. How much time does that leave for testing? I'd call the modern ones 'French Fords'. As evidence, look at resale values.

    Technology and features become a big liability if it's only been slapped together. Your just buying an expensive problem for the future.

    The only Peugeots I'd buy are gti 206 (performance) or hdi 307 (economy), but even those are not the most convincing buys.

    Peugeots *used* to be well built, and have always had good suspension, but lets face it we only compare them to Fords and Holdens because Australian's haven't been able to afford BMWs and Mercs in the past, so we're not exactly setting a high standard.

    My parents have had 1968 404, 1969 404, 1984 505sti, 604. Currently have 405srdt. I have had 205gti S1 and 205gti S2(or maybe 1.5). The 404's were great, simple and reliable, our family had them for 15 years and 25 years respectively. Everything more recent is just a problem, except for my 205's which made up for it by being fun.

    I feel sorry for people who buy new Pugs and Renaults (other than performance types of course).
    Hi Dlions,

    As one of the unfortunate people you mentioned with a new Pug, thanks for feeling sorry for me....

    Sounds like you've had many problems with late model French cars. Just out of interest, what modern makes/ models (if any) do you think set the standard in their respective classes...?

    Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    I've driven both the base model Focus and the 307 xsi, and I have to say the bog stock Focus has fantastic handling, and I found much better than the supposedly slightly sporty 307 xsi.
    The handling and ride in the touring 307 is different to the hatch 307 in my experience. I think they both take time to get used to. Strangest thing is that a corner the feels so-so at 50km/hr feels much easier at 80km/hr than you would expect. I think you really need to push a 307 to appreciate what it can do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jester_fu
    What DLions has said is a little mis-guided. I agree that resale on any new car is a joke, but all of the industry figures point to Peugeot maintaining a 75% resale after 3 years. Thats 75% of their RRP value. I certainly expericed that selling my GTi. I bought it for $27 000(on the road) and 2 years later traded it on the 180 for $22 000.
    What did you pay as ORP for the GTi180 though?

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  21. #21
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    [QUOTE=407er]Hi Dlions,

    As one of the unfortunate people you mentioned with a new Pug, thanks for feeling sorry for me....

    I think you're a bit oversensitive 407er. But we all are when we buy a new car and woe betide someone who criticises it.

    Human beings will always pick, pick, pick because that is our nature. And, diversity of opinion can make the world a more interesting place, particularly when everyone agrees with you!

    So relax! The 407 is a terrific car! It just got voted car of the year in NZ in Autocar(?) and I think it also got Scottish car of the year. Because you own a 407, chicks will fall all over ... your car!

    Even if you bought a porsche boxster you could bet your bottom dollar someone would find fault with it -probably along the lines of "... but it isn't a pug!".


  22. #22
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    [QUOTE=lucamote2005]
    Quote Originally Posted by 407er
    Hi Dlions,

    As one of the unfortunate people you mentioned with a new Pug, thanks for feeling sorry for me....

    I think you're a bit oversensitive 407er. But we all are when we buy a new car and woe betide someone who criticises it.


    Who me??...what do you mean...oversensitive...I'm not....am I???

    No probs lucamote2005, it was a bit tongue in cheek. I agree..it's diversity of opinion that makes visiting this forum worth visiting (as long as no ones bagging the 407 that is ). I've admired Pugs (including my nephew's 405mi16) for a while now although our 407 is my first pug.

    I'm amazed at the following the marque has here in Australia. I can't think of other car make forums as enthusiastic and active as Froggy Forum....so there must/ or maybe must've been something special about French cars. Peugeot Australia recently sent me a book "Peugeot the australian story" written by motoring journo Ewan Kennedy. It covers Peugeots early days from their first car in 1889 to their history in Oz including chapters on every model sold here up till present day....its a good read.

    Reading that book has answered my question on why most Pugs were/ are so highly regarded here.

    Now..... about my milkcrate grill.....

  23. #23
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    Ok, everyone seems to be telling their Pug stories, so I may as well chip in too.

    Iíd like to say that Iíve been a Pug enthusiast for almost 10 years now, but the truth is that Iím a driving enthusiast and I liked the way Pugs drove. So donít get confused, I think that a lot of ĎPug enthusiastsí put driving first, and for so many decades Pug had some of the best reliable driving packages around, so people bought them and found that when it was time to change, Pug was still among the best, so they bought again, I know I did.

    For me handling and safety (they go hand in hand) are first and foremost in my decision to buy a car, and at the time the 306 was the best around for the money, the 306 is a bit of a legend, so all Iíll say is that sometimes manufacturers get it right, and the 306 is one of those times. I know the car and I can trust the car, if I need it to it can get me out of trouble, safely and reliably. Itís more than just a bunch of steel and rubber, it becomes your friend on the road, itíll look after you and also have fun with you, it has some character and spirit and you look forward to the next time you drive it, something so many cars today lack.

    A couple of weeks ago I was reminded just how important that was and how much I missed enjoying driving home after work when I borrowed my Brother in Lawís Freelander and my wife had the Pug Ö. NEVER AGAIN !!!!!!! I can go on and on about why I didnít like driving the Freelander, but in truth it isnít a bad car, it just isnít a drivers car.

    Then came the 307 which I really have tried to like, but it doesnít matter how many times I drive it I canít get the same feedback and it has so many design faults that it is always a relief to get back into the 306. Pug seems to have changed from making drivers cars to making mass market vehicles.

    Yes, there was a sense of aloofness about owning a Pug, and there still is with the older ones. But I donít think that it was a Ďbrandí issue, it is more of a result of those who understand what is to enjoy driving, and over so many decades that resulted in a general perception that owning a Pug was a desirable thing. So today there is some status about owning a Pug, but the newer Pugs arenít what they used to be, which is where a lot of ĎPug enthusiastsí have ended their loyalty and the new generation of owner are less likely to be loyal in the long term.

    Peugeot seems to have lost focus on the driver, so I can understand why some of those with a longer history have regrets about what has been lost, but that is the direction that Peugeot has decided to take. I am looking for a second, larger car, and will probably go for something like a Subaru Liberty or MG ZT which are still very much drivers cars, I donít get the same from the Pug 407 (there are a few other issues like servicing difficulties in Brisbane). I am afraid that Peugeot is destined to become just another car make, and the reputation that was built up over so many decades will be lost in a very short time.

  24. #24
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    Can we get a Ph D student to do a Precise on this and then archive it?

    This started as a send up anyway. Great to see all the support etc. but

    Think about all the things that have changed since Peugeot, deservedly, earned its reputation.

    Pre 505, Mum & Dad saved for years to buy a car, no HP.

    The motoring industry was in its adolesence, all major brand had reputations, good or bad.

    Now cars are produced in the multi-millions annually.

    CAD designed by workers who travel from company to company.

    The Japanese developed one of the largest industrial bases in the world by copying the best things from all other car manufacturers, who inturn copied back from the Japanese.

    How would you innovate in such a climate?

    The differences now seem (strangely) to be even more divided along ethno/cultural lines depending on the nature of the societal needs of the country that builds them, Japanese have it all but still bland plasticky, Yanks still want ergonomically atroceous tanks, German soulless precision, Aussie cars seem a reasonable compilation of many styles/desires, English, poor saps the less said the better, and other Euro distinctive but trying hard to be distinctive.

    That Peugeot continue to release a ball tearer/industry beater every few years is much to their credit, who else is doing that?

    Three weeks ago I came into possession of a 1974 504 Ti and no amount of cold showers will cure my hardon.

    Think lateral, think broad, think global, think.

    Cheers ed ge

    Ps. lucamote back to the Triumph Dolomite Sports Club with you, ******.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgedweller

    Ps. lucamote back to the Triumph Dolomite Sports Club with you, ******.
    I'm a happy Pug 307 owner, edgedweller, 7/10 - but I see my Pug's faults - hopeless in city driving (gear/engine match seems odd. First is always too low, second too high. Sloppy 4th-5th !), takes off like a bloody swan, back pillars block vision, sloping nose makes for difficulty parking ... but out on the open road the swan finally achieves lift off and its a wondrous thing!

    To sum up (for me). I think these days people will buy pugs for the overall pacakage ( I bought mine for the 6 airbags) but I think that the deciding factor for some car buyers might be cachet! Something slinky and sexy that purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrs with a fench accent!


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