GTI-6 box into 205 Mi16
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default GTI-6 box into 205 Mi16

    Hi all,

    1st post so hello all. I've been doing a little searching around about GTI-6 boxes to go onto an Mi16 in a 205. Now I know this has been talked about lots but I'm sure I read somewhere that a GTI-6 box can be modified in order for you to retain the steering lock that you would normally loose using this box. Has anybody heard of this or not?

    I currently have what I think is a 1.9 GTI box with a 1.6 final drive but I'm finding it a tad short for longer journeys and motorways, and the few friends I have with prior knowledge of driving 205 Mi's with various gearboxes seem to think I may have a 1.9 box with an Mi final drive making things very short indeed (apparently). Either way it's flaming short, hence the urge to change again!!, and if I can keep the steering lock with a GTI-6 box then this seems like the way to go.

    Anyone shed any light on modding a GTI-6 box casing to retain the steering lock or am I gonna have to resort to going back to a 1.6GTI box??

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    BiFf

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I haven't heard of that, but why don't you use a 3.94:1 diff? That will give you an overall the 5th the same as the Mi16, about 31 km/h/1000RPM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiFf
    I'm sure I read somewhere that a GTI-6 box can be modified in order for you to retain the steering lock that you would normally loose using this box. Has anybody heard of this or not?
    The limit on the right steering lock is there to stop the wheels hitting the gearbox when the wheels are fully turned to the right. Even on a gti-6 which is bigger than a 205, the limiting lock needs to be there. So there's no point removing it. Also, there is no limiting lock turning the wheels left.
    Take the long way home....

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  4. #4
    Banned orestes's Avatar
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    i'd asume, due to the size of the GTI-6 gearbox, this would be a bloody hard conversion. Peugeot used to make a 6 speed dog box for motor sport purposes that is a lot smaller, maybe you should investigate that. Or as somone else sugested why don't you change the diff

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Stone Free's Avatar
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    I don't see why you just don't go the whole hog and put a gti-6 engine in there as well. That has been done before by quite a few people. Saw one on Performance GTI mag a few months ago. Had the highest top speed out of all the pugs at this track meet they were at including a T16 (although the T16 did 0-60mph in 3.5 sec).
    The AWARD WINNING 1998 Blaze Yellow 306 GTi6


    ......and a Series 3 205GTi on the side.



    "I enjoy telling people what to do, because I am an arrogant rock star. That's what I do. That's my job." Gene Simmons, ROCK SCHOOL.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Free
    I don't see why you just don't go the whole hog and put a gti-6 engine in there as well. That has been done before by quite a few people. Saw one on Performance GTI mag a few months ago. Had the highest top speed out of all the pugs at this track meet they were at including a T16 (although the T16 did 0-60mph in 3.5 sec).
    The '6 engine is a cast iron block and is quite heavy. I'm pretty sure the mi16 engine is an all alloy block. There's a good website, pumaracing I think, which gives a fair detail on the power potential of the mi16 engine and it's quite eye-opening. 200hp without loss in drivability and only minor work..from memory, just a cam upgrade. Emissions would be a different story, but going into a classic car, who cares!

    If the T16 could do 3.5 sec 0-60mph, it would have to be quite lowly geared to not achieve high'ish top speeds, even if its aerodynamics are like a brick. That kind of acceleration is better than even top end lambo's, ferraris.
    Take the long way home....

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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    The point is that a light car like the 205 doesn't need 6 gears. It can cope with a higher spread of ratios as it doesn't have the weight to carry. A heavier car needs to be kept on the boil so it doesn't fall off the torque curve.

    The 2L block is only 18kg heavier. It's really not that significant. Fitting light weight wheels would make up that difference.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Stone Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    If the T16 could do 3.5 sec 0-60mph, it would have to be quite lowly geared to not achieve high'ish top speeds, even if its aerodynamics are like a brick. That kind of acceleration is better than even top end lambo's, ferraris.
    Ha ha yes, I have the article in front of me now (Performance GTI sept/oct 2004 for thoe of you playing at home). The T16 managed 0-60mph in 3.78 secs (my mistake...sorry about that), 0-100mph in 10.06 secs and a 12.51 sec quarter mile and a top speed of 118mph. THe only car to beat it was a Renault Twin 5GTT doing 0-60mph in 3.70secs.

    *****For the technical minded, the engine is described thus: "1775CC four cylinder 16v, KKK turbo, light alloy XU block, mid mounted tranverse and tilted 200 rearwards, 7/1 compression ratio, 83x82 bore/stroke, forged steel crankshafts with 5 main bearings, 2 forged steel camshafts driven by toothed belt, Bosch K-Jetronic injection, aluminium water radiator." and the transmission....."Twin disk clutch with Cera metallic lining and hydraulic control, 5 speed type TJ gearbox, epicyclodial differential, hypoid front and rear diffs, 9/35 torque ration."*****

    The 205mi16s I have listed here are faster than the GTi6s. Fastest 205MI16 is a 0-60mph in 5.89 secs with a top speed of 137mph (beating even a NOSed Saxo) THe fastest GTi6 is 0-60 in 6.31 secs with a top speed of 139mph.

    But if the Mi16 is such a good engine why wasn't it continued??
    The AWARD WINNING 1998 Blaze Yellow 306 GTi6


    ......and a Series 3 205GTi on the side.



    "I enjoy telling people what to do, because I am an arrogant rock star. That's what I do. That's my job." Gene Simmons, ROCK SCHOOL.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone Free
    But if the Mi16 is such a good engine why wasn't it continued??
    NVH I guess. It's hard to beat cast iron.

    The XU9 was still used in WRC cars until just recently. http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/206_WR...WRC_Specs.html
    Last edited by PeterT; 18th January 2005 at 09:55 PM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  10. #10
    Tadpole
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    When I first bought my 205 I was running a standard Mi16 lump in there with a 1.9 205 GTI gearbbox. I found this a bit long (you gotta remember our roads in the UK are substantially windier than yours in Oz) so I have currently changed this and am presently running what I think (I had someone rebuild the unit for me g/boxes are a tad out of my depth) is a 1.9 GTI box with a 1.6 GTI final drive. Talking to some others though they seem to think I have an Mi16 final drive as the gearbox is ridiculously short. Flat out on the limiter (set at 7500rpm) I can only get up to *121mph (194kph), (*read as 70mph officer lol).

    I now run standard internals to the engine, the head has been tickled a little bit though and I run Emerald M3d Management and Jenvey Throttle bodies. I should soon have a Maniflow 4-2-1 manifold and Alien concepts straight through exhaust to free up some more power. I should be looking at around 170-180bhp I guess, which is another reason why I need a slightly longer box as with the increase in power I seems to be flying through the gears but struggling for traction in anything but the driest conditions (which isn't very often in the UK )

    There are some later 405 Mi16's in the UK that are 2.0ltr Iron block units but my specific lump is out of a Citroen BX and is the lighter 1.9 alloy block model.

    I've spoke with a few people about going for the GTI6 gearbox and apparently if I run 1.6 GTI hubs then I could get some of the lock back on the 205 but TBH I don't think it's worth the hassle.

    I also read somewhere about using a 1.9 box with a 1.6 final drive then using the 5th gear from a 205 diesel. Only thing is I reckon it would crunch like crazy going between 4th & 5th and you might drop out of the power a little but would soon be on song again.

    Any thoughts anyone?

    BiFf

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