Urgent...help removing crankshaft pulley
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Icon8 Urgent...help removing crankshaft pulley

    After many hours of tuning, 2 new sets of spark plugs, carb rebuilding, replaced vacuum hoses and several more grey hairs, I finally tracked down the 'poor' running problem with our new 505. The engine used to replace the original motor has had a timing chain replaced.
    The Einstein who did it has the cam timing out at least 1 possibly 2 teeth in alignment. no wonder the thing has no torque after 3500, or on uphill acceleration. Actually it doesn't have any uphill acceleration to speak of.

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    Thats an easy fix.
    The hard part is removing the crankshaft pulley. It is on so tight that I have bent my 1/2'' drive bar, and borrowed one form a fellow frogger, and then destroyed the 'key' I had made out of 2mm steel to lock the flywheel. (neat little inspection hole in the transmission on 4hp22 boxes).
    Does anyone have any ideas on how to hold the thing still whilst I remove the pulley??? It is on too tight. I thought something like a large oil filter tool form a truck or something. I would have to hold the pulley itself, but don't wnat to damage it because it's the only 3 row one I have.
    Urgent need a decent suggestion or something as I'd like to get the car back on the road by Monday, as I started this morning and thought it'd be a one day job.

    Cheers Chris


    P.S. it's a pushrod engine
    Last edited by HONG KONG PUGGY; 16th January 2005 at 12:04 PM.
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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    Hey Chris,

    Thought about a rattle gun ?


    Cheers

    Ben
    1989 Peugeot 405 Mi16
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Tight C/s Bolt

    Quote Originally Posted by Pug_405_Mi16
    Hey Chris,

    Thought about a rattle gun ?


    Cheers

    Ben

    The rattle gun is the best way, but also probably the most difficult to arrange.

    You could try this:

    Make sure the plugs are in so you have compression andl lock the engine with the key as before.

    Fit the socket with the t bar, arrange the orientation of the bar it so it able to be hit with a (heavy, I use one of the small flat faced hammers which weigh about 2kg ) hammer to turn the bar anti clockwise.

    You may need to cut a piece of timber to a v shape to support the socket on the pulley bolt. The v shaped fork will support the socket.

    GIVE THE BAR A MIGHTY SMITE in an anti cloc direction - it's the initial sharp blow that get's things loosened.

    It has either been done up out of the car by a nubian slave with a 2m lever or it has been locktited.

    Either way you need a sharp jarring impact to loosen it.

    Best of luck.
    Last edited by robmac; 15th January 2005 at 08:58 PM. Reason: missing words...

  4. #4
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    I take it this is a 2 litre carby engine?

    There are a variety of chain type pipe wrenches you could hold the pulley with whilst you belt a socket bar in the right direction and this often works.

    It sounds scary but the easiest way if it's really tight is to fit a suitable socket and bar to the nut (sometimes you may need to support the soket a bit on a 505 with the skinny nut), suspend the bar end a few inches above the cross member, and hit the starter. Pretty safe if the radiator is out but could be a risk of damage to it if it's in. I've done it this way on numerous occasions, including accidentally when I've left the socket on the big nut after setting the points.

    Hope it helps, good luck.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    Ahhh yes,

    The starter is the best easiest method ! Thats how i'd do it now you come to say it!

    Cheers

    Ben
    1989 Peugeot 405 Mi16
    1990 Peugeot 505 GTD Turbo Wagon
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  6. #6
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    I've used the starter method with a V6 Commodore. Just make sure that there is not something breakable where the socket handle whacks the underside of the car.
    Stephen
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    Fellow Frogger! Ralph's Avatar
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    Looking at the pulley from the front of the car it spins clockwise when the engine is turning over normally. If you get a 35mm socket and 3/4" bar resting on the front cross member it will undo when you hit the starter as the previous posts say.
    The actual pulley can be a biatch to get off, just ask Ray. Lots of Inox and a couple of pinch bars will do the trick. A decent 3 arm gear puller set up properly is the preferred method.

    Rattle guns are good, it's the shock that does the damage.


    Matt.
    Last edited by Ralph; 15th January 2005 at 10:41 PM.
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Thanks guys,
    I did try the belt it method once late this aftrenoon.(thanks Rob) Wood between small sledge hammer and 3/4'' socket/bar. That was when I busted my hand crafted highly technical key( ).
    I have a couple of old angle screwdrivers which I am going to grind down for wedges tomorrow, they should hold up better than the steal I used today.


    303.....would an equipment hire place have a suitable chain type pipe wrench??

    I also tried the starter method, turned till bar hit top of front crossmember, engine stopped key (pulley height is above c/m on 505 carby engines.

    One thing that comes to mind here is ...I just wish that people who DON'T have a clue would leave the mechanical work to the ones who either are paid to do it, or those with some skill or know how. I don't mean to discourage anyone form trying, but at least have someone round who knows which way's up please.

    Thanks again for the help.
    Chris....I'll keep you posted.
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    they can form a very close friendship over time and don't like parting with each other

    the longer they are left alone the stronger their friendship is

    be careful of using a pipe wrench as the pulleys can be easily broken

    try soaking the nut for a while with some penetrene and then try again

    a rattle gun is the easiest way but you need to make sure you have enough room to get it in there

    i used a rattle gun on the last engine to remove a nut that was very friendly with the crankshaft but that engine was out of the car so access wasn't a problem
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  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Default can you use the old rope trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    Does anyone have any ideas on how to hold the thing still whilst I remove the pulley??? It is on too tight. I thought something like a large oil filter tool form a truck or something. I would have to hold the pulley itself, but don't wnat to damage it because it's the only 3 row one I have.
    Cheers Chris
    Chris - consider this idea, on my STI, I used the starter trick to loosen the nut BUT you cant do this to tighten the nut.
    SO I took out the spark plugs and fed lots of rope into the cylinder plug hole on BDC & then slowly wound the cyl up until it jammed tight. The rope is softer than piston valves etc so it wont damage anything - but it stops engine movement (either way). When I finished with tightening the nut, I wound back the piston pressure & took out the rope.
    I know its ultra primitive but it worked for me!
    PS: I used the thickist soft rope I could find that went into the plug hole & burnt/melted the end to make sure it didnt fray & I put some grease on the end so it would move around when I fed more in. Off course dont put it all in!!!

    Good luck with it mate
    So many projects - so little time.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default Help removing crank pulley.

    Hong Kong Puggy,
    A previous caller asked if it was the 2 litre engine? I didn't see a reply so I will also ask and put a further question.
    If it is a 2 litre pushrod engine how have you established that the timing chain is out by 1 or 2 teeth ? As you are still in the process of removing the crank pulley, this means that the timing cover is still in place ?
    Along with the previous caller we might be thinking that you are talking about the later OHC engine and you mean that the timing belt is out 1 or 2 teeth?

    If this is the case and here I bow to the knowledgable out there. Can the cam belt cover be removed to access the belt without removing the pulley?

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    When I had to take it off the 405 I had #1 son sit in the car in gear with his foot planted firmly on the brake pedal. My rattle gun would not undo the nut but a 3' length of pipe on the socket bar (not the ratshit(wratchet)) soon fixed it.
    Neil
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  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    After many hours of tuning, 2 new sets of spark plugs, carb rebuilding, replaced vacuum hoses and several more grey hairs, I finally tracked down the 'poor' running problem with our new 505. The engine used to replace the original motor has had a timing chain replaced.
    The Einstein who did it has the cam timing out at least 1 possibly 2 teeth in alignment. no wonder the thing has no torque after 3500, or on uphill acceleration. Actually it doesn't have any uphill acceleration to speak of.

    Thats an easy fix.
    The hard part is removing the crankshaft pulley. It is on so tight that I have bent my 1/2'' drive bar, and borrowed one form a fellow frogger, and then destroyed the 'key' I had made out of 2mm steal to lock the flywheel. (neat little inspection hole in the transmission on 4hp22 boxes).
    Does anyone have any ideas on how to hold the thing still whilst I remove the pulley??? It is on too tight. I thought something like a large oil filter tool form a truck or something. I would have to hold the pulley itself, but don't wnat to damage it because it's the only 3 row one I have.
    Urgent need a decent suggestion or something as I'd like to get the car back on the road by Monday, as I started this morning and thought it'd be a one day job.

    Cheers Chris
    The easiest thing to do is what I did with my gs, rip on the handbrake (tight !!), chock all four wheels ... I still wound the [email protected] of a thing half way over all 4chocks against the handbrake before the crank bolt let go (sending my flying across the shed ).

    In your case this will be easier as your brakes work when the car isn't running. Put the car in 1st gear and have someone big and heavy stand on the brake pedal Then it is just the matter of selecting the biggest lever you can find for the crank pulley spanner.

    BTW: I'm a bit concerned the cam was 2teeth out without pistons hitting vavles or something horrible. Are you sure it's not now 2teeth out but it was ok before Does this motor have the harmonic balancer/crank pulley that allows the outer half of the pulley spin with respect to the inner half (putting your cam timing wwwwaaaaayyyyy out if you try setting it with the to locking pins!!).

    seeya,
    Shane L.

    seeya
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 16th January 2005 at 09:29 AM.
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  14. #14
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    The foot on the brake method is great for manual cars but not so effective for auto cars which is what we are talking about.

    Jarrod

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=pugrambo]they can form a very close friendship over time and don't like parting with each other

    Yes I agree 'rambo, but the silicon on the t/case gasket isn't too old, so I'd say either really tight and or loctite....

    mmm space is a hassle, engine in car.

    Yes people it's a pushrod engine...tragic..not a silly idea, may come to that if I can't find anything else. Lateral thought processes going on there.

    BTW.....it is also an auto. ..so no amount of brake applying is gunna do a thing except stop the car rolling out the garage door
    Last edited by HONG KONG PUGGY; 16th January 2005 at 09:57 AM.
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    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY

    BTW.....it is also an auto. ..so no amount of brake applying is gunna do a thing except stop the car rolling out the garage door
    NOW you tell us
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruiserman
    NOW you tell us
    Just assumed y'all knew. (you know what they say, If you assume...you make an ass out of u and me )...

    Not doing to flash today...no luck at ALL on finding a hire place with a pipe wrench etc with 130mm+ jaw size. I don't think locking the flywheel is such a good idea, I think if I use any stronger a piece of steel I may fracture off a tooth from the flywheel and then Mrs HKP may fracture something off me.
    Short of removing the sump, jamming large piece of wood in there I am at a loss for ideas.
    My dream is to one day be able to afford a car that has been serviced properly ......(pause for minutes silence......... ) and not butchered or tampered with .....oh we can all dream.
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    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    transmission on 4hp22 boxes).
    You did tell us!

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default cranky crank pulley.

    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY
    Just assumed y'all knew. (you know what they say, If you assume...you make an ass out of u and me )...

    Not doing to flash today...no luck at ALL on finding a hire place with a pipe wrench etc with 130mm+ jaw size. I don't think locking the flywheel is such a good idea, I think if I use any stronger a piece of steel I may fracture off a tooth from the flywheel and then Mrs HKP may fracture something off me.
    Short of removing the sump, jamming large piece of wood in there I am at a loss for ideas.
    My dream is to one day be able to afford a car that has been serviced properly ......(pause for minutes silence......... ) and not butchered or tampered with .....oh we can all dream.
    Good, we've established its a 2 litre pushrod engine. I repeat my earlier question. How do you know the timing is out 1 or 2 teeth with the timing cover still in place? This knowledge would require more than lateral thought, a crystal ball maybe.
    Have you carried out a basic test to establish the valve timing / top dead centre relationship? I don't wish to insult your intelligence by suggesting you do this. First, remove the tappet cover, rotate the engine until the TDC mark lines up on the timing cover for cyl No 1 [at the rear]. Now turn the engine back a 1/4 turn. Now turn it forward slowly and observe the valve operation on No 4 cyl. These valves should be in a "rocking" position when the TDC marks line up. By "rocking", the valves should both be slightly and equally open. You will need a good eye for this but you'll hopefully see what I mean. If one or the other valves seem to be ahead or behind this sequence there is a chance the timing will be out as you suspect.

    Back to your tight crank nut. As you are rightly concerned at locking your flywheel/driveplate and you are not in possession of a rattle gun,[preferred]can I suggest a yet, untried by me method? Put the engine in the No 4 firing position just after top dead centre. Remove a spark plug, pour in a small amount of engine oil until it is visible at the bottom of the plug hole. Replace plug.
    This will effectively provide a "hydraulic lock" preventing the engine turning so that you may be able to undo your nut. Don't forget to remove the plug and pump out the oil afterwards!
    Might I add that to remove this nut will require a VERY good quality bar and socket usually with the assistance of a length of pipe.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Default Old bit of 2'' by 2''

    Sorted...thanks to all who made suggestions. Ended up draining all the oil, dropping sump, jamming a block of 2x2 in it and turning. When push came to shove it didn't seem to be all that tight. More effort was initially wasted on trying to keep it still with various methods, and I thought it was with vast amounts of force applied. After we got it lose today, we didn't feel it took all that much effort. It turned out to be about 1 tooth out, 10*. So we advanced it all that one tooth, refitted chain, tensioner(which had been installed and not activated, so it rattled like hell until oil pressure built up, and now is quiet) and camshaft wheel. Attempted to start it, fired easier thanit ever has, never even needed to press the accelerator pedal to start it. Had a to celebrate.
    Will be great, has 3 x new belts also, activated timing chain, and hopefully more go than b4. I know 505GR/SR aint quick, but this one has to improve.

    Jarrods, I didn't realize till later I had posted the gearbox code, yes that said it all.

    Wildebeest, much research and lots of time and $$ went into arriving at the conclusion of the timing being incorrect, including a mechanic friend removing tappet cover and assessing valve accuation. It had to be something like this as compression is OK, good spark, new plugs, correct timing, rebuilt carburetor, new fuel filter....I couldn't think of anything else to thwor $$ at except a complete rebuild. That will come later with the original engine, complete with 4 branch manifold, 4 port head and more to be decided.
    Thanks for the input though, it all helps because a little thing may-be jsut what you hadn't thought of.

    Thanks again and I will post again after I have road tested the car Monday.Tuesday.
    Chris
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