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Thread: 309s

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    309s

    I realise the 309 wasn't actually designed by Peugeot, but was designed just before Peugeot bought Talbot (Or Simca, I forget) and then styled it for their look, so are their any things to know about them, if they are less reliable/worse built than equivalent peugeots, 205s, 405s etc?

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  2. #2
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Actually the 309 was designed to be a Talbot, using Peugeot mechanicals, during the early 1980s, when Talbot was already fully owned by PSA (Peugeot). Not long before its release, PSA decided to disband the Talbot name plate (probably due to low sales). This would have left a new model Talbot ready to be released, even though Talbot didn't exist anymore. To get back all the money put into designing this car, PSA decided to release it as a Peugeot, and called it the 309. I guess the "9" part of the name reflected the fact that it didn't really fit into the Peugeot model structure (they'd only just released the "new" 305 series 2). As things worked out the 309 gradually took away sales from the 305 and eventually the 305 sedans were discontinued. leaving only the 305 wagon and panel van in addition to the 309 (in 3 and 5 door versions).

    Talbot was the name PSA gave to the former Chrysler Europe (which included the marques Simca, Hillman, Sunbeam, Talbot, etc) when they purchased it in the late 1970s for US$1, during Chryslers famous financial woes. This is how Peugeot came to own the Hillman factory in Britain where the 306 is built (and before it the 309).

    Dave
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  3. #3
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    To add to that, Peugeot inherited the Hilman factory in Iran (Paykan) and continued producing Hillman Hunters there, although with Peugeot 404 engines in them.

    Around the same time that Peugeot bought Chrysler Europe, Mitsubishi bought Chrysler Australia.

    I have no idea about what problems are associated with the 309, but because they have the same mechanicals and platform as the 205 (and 305 series 2?) they should have similar levels of reliability. As to build quality, I assume the British Hillman workforce which built the 309 wouldn't have been any worse than the French workers who built the 205.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! billtran's Avatar
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    Ha ha ha. When you're driving in your 306 pride and joy, just remember, it was built in a Hillman factory!
    You're not paranoid if everyone hates you.

  5. #5
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    Don't forget the Hillman Hunter won the London to Sydney, then twenty or so years later came back and did it again in the retrospective of the same event !!! Not that this means anything whatsoever as far as the road cars go...

    Stuey (ex '54 Minx owner, and Thrillseeker)


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  6. #6
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Stuey,

    I kept close tabs on both historic reruns of the London to Sydney (1993 and 2000). In 1993 the ex-Tom Cowan Hunter fell apart (I was there in Canberra watching a stage when the Hunter had steering trouble - the front cross member had come loose and was moving around). The 1993 winner was a Porsche, a Falcon came second and a Peugeot 504 third. In 2000 a Capri won and the Porsche came second.

    When you say that a Hunter "did it again in the retrospective of the same event" I'm not sure what you mean, because they never won anything other than the original as far as I know. I'm not saying Hunters are bad though.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    When I said above that "the 309 gradually took away sales from the 305", I think that is incorrect. I think it was more like they very quickly took away sales from the 305 and the 305 sedans were discontinued very quickly after the 309 was released.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Not surprising, look at the 305, it's a scaled down 505 which design dates back to the late 70's, the 205-405-309 style would have been much more contemporary.

  9. #9
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    Oh, Mr McBean, you've just embarrassed me big time. I was sure I'd read in a classic car mag. that it'd done it again.

    (PS. wasn't it Andrew Cowan's car that was rebuilt?)

    Yours redly,

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  10. #10
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    (PS. wasn't it Andrew Cowan's car that was rebuilt?)

    [/QB]

    Stuey,

    Sorry, yes it was Andrew Cowan's car. For some reason I keep calling him Tom Cowan (probably due to that other famous UK motorsport fella Tom Walkinshaw).

    We all make mistakes!

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  11. #11
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    While we're on this subject, where is the world's best (and cheapest) supply of 1290cc 305 engines?

    Rebuildable examples, condition unimportant as long as the blocks are okay...

  12. #12
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    A Hunter won the around the world rally run last year at around the same time as the 2000 London Sydney marathon.

    Graham Wallis

  13. #13
    Tadpole
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    Do all 1990 onward 309gti putting out 130hp if they dont have a cat?
    How much torque do they put out?
    Which injection system do they use?
    Is it L-Jetronic?
    Is it normal that they dont have back springs? Is this something peugeot used back then for the lower ride height?

    Thanks

    Nath

  14. #14
    Member Eddie's Avatar
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    The torsion bar at the back is perfectly normal, its just a spring alternative. It is an (almost) identical setup to the 205, and it can be lowered or raised by turning the torsion bar.

    Not sure about the power output, but the post 1990 euro-spec 205 Gti's (1.9) had 122 bhp, as opposed to the 130 bhp of pre 1990 (was it 1988?) cars. This was because of the cat, but also a drop in compression ratio, due to pistons, (9.6:1 vs. 9.2:1).

    -Eddie

  15. #15
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    How easily is it to lower the torsion bar, any cost? is it something you can do relatively simply at home?

    Oh and so there are _no_ back springs in a 205/309, torsion bar and dampers?

  16. #16
    Member Eddie's Avatar
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    That's right, dampers and torsion bars, no springs.

    You can lower the torsion bar yourself, if you are fairly on to it, otherwise it pays to take it to someone that you can blame should something go wrong

    Have a look at these articles:
    http://www.205gti.com/techslamrearUK.htm
    http://www.geocities.com/pug16vuk/artic/lower.htm

    Also, when lowering the rear, it pays to harden it up somehow - normally with some adjustable shocks. This is because when the car is lowered you are effectively running on the soft "beginning" of the shocking process, as everything is that bit lower. This means it may feel a bit crashier at the rear (this really only applies when lowered large amounts: 60mm), but its all down to opinion. My car isn't lowered (yet), so I'm basing this on what I've read...

    Hope some of this helps
    -Eddie

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Au contraire... firming up the dampers may actually worsen the problem!

    As the greater portion of the damping is on the rebound stroke, and most adjusters affect either only rebound or rebound to a greater degree, you would be setting the car up to continually ride lower over a quick series of bumps...

    Maybe bigger bump rubbers, but leave the damping alone, I would think.

  18. #18
    Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Ah ok, fair enough, I did base what I wrote on my (limited) knowledge/reading

    Would koni adjustables at the rear would be pointless? (I was looking at lowering onto these all round)

    -Eddie

  19. #19
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    Graham, that's the result I was thinking of (the Hunter win).

    Louis, extreme lowering (ie. 60mm) may even require shorter dampers designed for lowering applications. Note that you can think of a torsion bar as a coil spring straightened out. Both of them twist about their axis when the suspension is compressed. Plenty of cars have them - all Porsche 911's until recently had them for example. Or at the other end of the scale, old Holdens...

    Cheers

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  20. #20
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    I have just had my rear torsion bar rebuilt. I would NOT play with the torsion bar yourself unless you have the peugeot factory equipment for adjusting the arms. You see there is a different number of splines on each arm( L to R) and you need a very accurate machine to realign them.

    As for the shocks, I have found the genuine ones to be excellent, and if your going to go adjustable, go for öhlins or Bilstein. Don't use koni or anything cheaper, its not worth your time or money

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