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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    PUG 505 Brakes

    I've a simple question about disc pads.

    A pair of disc pads on a wheel should wear fairly uniformly ????? That is, both pads from one set should be wearing at a similar rate...all things being equal with reference to the materials in the pads??

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    If this is so, why have the last disc pads on the front of our 505 SR wagon worn so uneven that the outer pad on each side is almost non-existant, and worn past the centre groove on the left pad particularly.
    Pad material on the left outer in particular looks suspect, as it's all pitted on the surface, and has scored the disc slightly too.

    I have never seen a set of pads wear so unevenly on any car I have owned or worked on???

    Any ideas or answers greatly appreciated.

    Thanks Chris L head_ban
    2016 Renault Sport Clio Cup EDC 200



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    2001 Rx-4 Privilege
    R17TL, 1973
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    "When you hit the tree between the headlights thats understeer. Oversteer is when you hit the tree between the Tail Lights" - Wayne Bell

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    orange17:
    If this is so, why have the last disc pads on the front of our 505 SR wagon worn so uneven that the outer pad on each side is almost non-existant, and worn past the centre groove on the left pad particularly.
    The brake mechanism works by a piston pushing on one side, which forces the body of the brake unit to "pull" the opposing pad against the other side. So I wonder if the symptom you describe is a result of the sliding parts becoming corroded or otherwise gummed up so that strong pressure is only being applied on one side. If you pull the calipers off you should be able to slide them in and out by hand. If they are stiff you may have discovered your problem.

    My 2c. (Not even sure it is logical, but hey, it is late! Btw, I don't think I've ever seen a pair of 504 or 505 pads wear really evenly. There always seems to be some discrepancy, although not as severe as you describe.) Anyway, any competent mechanic should be able to diagnose the problem in a jiffy, one would think.

    Regards,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Not sure about 505s... I think they have just one piston, so John would be right on the money.

    But 504s have two pistons, one acting through the sliding frame to operate the outside caliper. In these, then, it's possible it's either the frame or the inner piston.

    Don't know about the pitting...

  4. #4
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    orange17:
    I've a simple question about disc pads.

    ...why have the last disc pads on the front of our 505 SR wagon worn so uneven ...

    Any ideas or answers greatly appreciated.

    Thanks Chris L head_ban
    Chris,

    What manufacture of calipers do you have? DBA calipers have two parts held together with two guide sleeves. The diecasting wears which gives the sort of problem you are experiencing.

    For the 505 wagon that I had, the solution was to throw away the DBA calipers and replace with a set of second hand Teeves calipers. With Teeves the action between the two halves is much like a wedge - and problem solved.

    I'd say this is your problem.

    Denis

    PS - you can check quite easily by taking off a front wheel and trying to rock the caliper on the guide sleeves.

    <small>[ 13 June 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Denis ]</small>

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Thanks guys,

    The new pads went in today, the type is ATE, the rectangle pads with the little "ears" for the pins to locate in.

    John??...I know what you are saying , and I am pretty sure the whole mechanism is free, I moved the piston body, caliper in and out along it's travel and it moves. But, even if it were a little stiff, there are 3 points of force. The piston to the inner pad, the piston pulling the caliper arm back towards itself in order to pull the opposite pad onto the other sied of the disc. From all that I would have thought even if the re was a problem, the inner pad would carry more of the load? And wear first.
    i ahve no ideas, but I am going to keep a close eye on the pads this time, checking each month.

    The other hassle with the outer pad wearing, was that had it been an inner pad with the warning wire it would have alerted us ages ago. This was the other little thing that made me think that there was a compound problem withtin the pads themselves. The fact the inner pad has the warning wire, would say to me it has the likelyhood of going first?

    Chris.
    2016 Renault Sport Clio Cup EDC 200



    Previous

    2001 Rx-4 Privilege
    R17TL, 1973
    R20TS x 3
    R18 GTS wagon x 2
    R10





    "When you hit the tree between the headlights thats understeer. Oversteer is when you hit the tree between the Tail Lights" - Wayne Bell

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    orange17:
    John??...I know what you are saying , and I am pretty sure the whole mechanism is free, I moved the piston body, caliper in and out along it's travel and it moves. But, even if it were a little stiff, there are 3 points of force. The piston to the inner pad, the piston pulling the caliper arm back towards itself in order to pull the opposite pad onto the other sied of the disc. From all that I would have thought even if the re was a problem, the inner pad would carry more of the load? And wear first.
    >>
    This was the other little thing that made me think that there was a compound problem withtin the pads themselves. The fact the inner pad has the warning wire, would say to me it has the likelyhood of going first?
    I agree with all of this - it is why I added the comment questioning whether or not my comments were logical. I didn't think of the "cheap pads" possibility. Maybe that's it. But to be frank, I really think a decent mechanic ought to be able to diagnose this one. They have the advantage of seeing different cars day in, day out, and they get to know from experience what symptoms point to which causes.

    Having said that, brakes are a nightmare. I once had uneven braking on a 504, and had all the disks skimmed, kits put through the calipers, and new pads fitted. And there was no change at all!
    The mechanic (a factory-trainned Pug expert, and generally very competent) was completely bluffed. I never did get them working properly. (Now you know not to read what I say.)

    On another note, anybody seen this? <a href="http://www.geocities.com/dkadarisman/Gallery/main.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/dkadarisman/Gallery/main.htm</a>

    Some nice, and not so nice, body mods on different models. Don't think I've ever seen a 604 in quite the condition of one presented there!

    Love this green 505. Anybody know what grill that is?

    <img src="http://home.space.net.au/~nethow/505_4a.jpg" alt=" - " />

    Regards,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    orange17:
    .....I would have thought even if the re was a problem, the inner pad would carry more of the load? And wear first.....
    Carrying the load isn't the issue... the problem is remaining in contact with the disc when the braking is done.

    In other words, hydraulic pressure puts the brakes on evenly, in all probability, but pad knockoff, which is required to completely free the wheel of braking effort, is left to a free-running system in these components.

    Otherwise it wears the pad away that fraction more that's required to free up.

  8. #8
    nJm
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    The piston in the rear left caliper on my 505 were what caused the handbrake not to function on that wheel. I had both rear calipers completely rebuilt and new handbrake cables installed. However, about 3 weeks after getting it done the 'new' 2nd hand piston my mechanic had used in that wheel must have broken again as the handbrake is now locked on that wheel (well, was until I unjammed it).

    John, some of those 'hotted up' 505s are pretty horrible aren't they! I do like the black one with the 406 hubcap style wheels (with whitewall tyres!). All the chrome bits on the car look so new.

    I have seen a rather horrible 505 GR from Germany which had disgusting hub caps fitted, a cheap looking black spoiler, peugeot lion stickers on the C pillars and other things like that. Quite funny really.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  9. #9
    Gus
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    A couple of those Indonesian pugs have modified 405 grilles. The good thing about Indonesia is engineering costs are laughable compared to Oz.

    I'm going to Indo for a year in January as part of my degree. I know of some places over there making, among other things, 505 bodykits. I might go check it out if I have time.

  10. #10
    nJm
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    This is another good indonesian site:
    <a href="http://www.peugeot-505.com" target="_blank">http://www.peugeot-505.com</a>

    It even has photo step by step instructions on how to do some things like modify the wheel hubs to fit different alloys, etc.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Ray,
    Thanks once again . This isn't one of the things I'd have thought of. All being equal though, the pads weren't there long enough for the left one to be as thin as it is though. An amount of wear could be accounted to the caliper not returning fully, but this particular pad is stuffed!!!. I am almost certain I'd have to replace the disc tomorrow if i didn't look at them the other day because I am certain that the blemish in the pad is the indent from the backing plate location grove.
    Well, I'll go and apply copious amounts of high temp grease to the moving bits (tomorow), I'll be able to replace pads in no time soon. head_ban (job with Pug rally team may-be???) dance
    Thanks again Ray,

    Chris
    2016 Renault Sport Clio Cup EDC 200



    Previous

    2001 Rx-4 Privilege
    R17TL, 1973
    R20TS x 3
    R18 GTS wagon x 2
    R10





    "When you hit the tree between the headlights thats understeer. Oversteer is when you hit the tree between the Tail Lights" - Wayne Bell

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    nJm:
    John, some of those 'hotted up' 505s are pretty horrible aren't they! I do like the black one with the 406 hubcap style wheels (with whitewall tyres!). All the chrome bits on the car look so new.
    Yes, not bad except for the white side-walls (they always remind me of white shoes on a bloke - usually found under a white suit and a quick tongue), and the bump strips down the side are different from what we have here. I think I prefer the local ones. (Anybody know where you can buy the side bump strips locally - or some kind of reasonable imitation? The only price I've had on them was $500 - too much! - and aftermarket ones all look too skinny.)

    The green car in this pic is not bad:

    <img src="http://home.space.net.au/~nethow/Modified%20pug%20-%20green.jpg" alt=" - " />

    The clour-coded bumper is nice, and the blacked-out grill. Don't mind those BMW-style mags either. Anybody know what the grill is? 405?

    I'm sweating on the local Pug wrecker giving me a price on a set of GTI bumpers he has. Colour-coding them is the next job after the engine build, which is happening this week. I'll get some pics of the engine as it goes together.

    Cheers,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  13. #13
    nJm
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    John, I believe that green 505 has the very late Argentina grille (also found on the Chinese 'clone' 505's built there).

    <img src="http://www.garage24.net/505ww/50548.jpg" alt=" - " />

    For other world 505s have a look here (and yes, that's my car in the Australia section )
    <a href="http://www.garage24.net/505-3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.garage24.net/505-3.htm</a>
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    Gus:
    I'm going to Indo for a year in January as part of my degree. I know of some places over there making, among other things, 505 bodykits. I might go check it out if I have time.
    Hi Gus,

    Any indications as to names of businesses, or points of contact for these people? I was chatting with a friend this morning who is an import furniture buyer up there, and he is happy to check out body kit manufacturers if I can give him some leads.

    Regards,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  15. #15
    nJm
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    This french 505 has a large front spoiler:

    <img src="http://www.garage24.net/505ww/50536.jpg" alt=" - " />
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Call 000 ....
    We have a situation.....think it's called a hijack.

    dance No problems though, some of those Indonesians have nice Pugs....must remember to be a little less racist toward our fellow peugeot brothers... roll_lau roll_lau
    Just kidding, and I did get the brakes sorted today Ray, all greased where necessary.
    Should the actual piston carrier move in the calliper body section it sits in?? I didn't think so as to remove one of them was real tight, not a loose movemnet like the sliding part of the calliper. Anyhow, I'll let you know in a few weeks if I got it right and the pads don't wear too fast. Thanks Ray. BTW...how much did the bookshopp in Gunnedah want for the R10 book??
    I have 3 R10 w/shop manuals, Gregory's, Haynes and InterEurope, you said it was ??? can't find your posting to see the name.
    Chris
    2016 Renault Sport Clio Cup EDC 200



    Previous

    2001 Rx-4 Privilege
    R17TL, 1973
    R20TS x 3
    R18 GTS wagon x 2
    R10





    "When you hit the tree between the headlights thats understeer. Oversteer is when you hit the tree between the Tail Lights" - Wayne Bell

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    JOHN,
    1000 apologies my friend, I thought Ray was on the money with the sliding parts, but I went back and re-read the topic, and yours was the first mention of it.
    I am sorry, ...credit where credit's due. cheers!
    If your ever in QLD I'll buy you that beer
    Chris
    2016 Renault Sport Clio Cup EDC 200



    Previous

    2001 Rx-4 Privilege
    R17TL, 1973
    R20TS x 3
    R18 GTS wagon x 2
    R10





    "When you hit the tree between the headlights thats understeer. Oversteer is when you hit the tree between the Tail Lights" - Wayne Bell

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
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    orange17:
    JOHN,
    1000 apologies my friend, I thought Ray was on the money with the sliding parts, but I went back and re-read the topic, and yours was the first mention of it.
    I am sorry, ...credit where credit's due. cheers!
    If your ever in QLD I'll buy you that beer
    Chris
    I'll take the beer, but I'll get it from you before you notice who "hijacked" the thread...

    To continue the hijacking, in general I agree about "ricey" cars - they overdo everything, until the car is all "show" and becomes completely impractical. Cars have to look practical or they cease looking like cars.

    My own view is that one should choose just the right mods to make the car look "right". Very few car manufacturers get it quite right, partly for reasons dictated by marketing (the classic example would have to be American 505s - ever see one of those Yank rear bumpers????!!!), partly due to practicality for general motoring (ride height is an example of this), and partly because tastes are individual. Which is why, I guess, only the very few cars ever become "classics." Think Dino Ferrari, Alpha GTV (the first one), the MG A type. Of modern cars I love the shape of the 505, and even more modern, the Holden (did I say that?) Vectra. The latter car's proportions are perfect. Gosh, I can't believe I wrote that. The truth hurts.

    And all of us have budgets, so that restricts things anyway. Otherwise our cars will approximate a boat - you know, a hole in the ocean into which you pour money.

    Notice how the second green car, above, has very few mods - colour-coded bumbers, a spoiler, the side bump strips removed, the blacked-out grill, and the GTI-style black window surrounds instead of the chrome-and-colour ones. A set of mags and a slight lowering completes the picture. Very nicely done - and it would cost almost nothing, other than the re-spray any project is going to get anyway, and the mags.

    Regards,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  19. #19
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    orange17:
    Thanks guys,

    The new pads went in today, the type is ATE, the rectangle pads with the little "ears" for the pins to locate in.

    John??...I know what you are saying , and I am pretty sure the whole mechanism is free, I moved the piston body, caliper in and out along it's travel and it moves. But, even if it were a little stiff, there are 3 points of force. The piston to the inner pad, the piston pulling the caliper arm back towards itself in order to pull the opposite pad onto the other sied of the disc. From all that I would have thought even if the re was a problem, the inner pad would carry more of the load? And wear first.
    i ahve no ideas, but I am going to keep a close eye on the pads this time, checking each month.

    The other hassle with the outer pad wearing, was that had it been an inner pad with the warning wire it would have alerted us ages ago. This was the other little thing that made me think that there was a compound problem withtin the pads themselves. The fact the inner pad has the warning wire, would say to me it has the likelyhood of going first?

    Chris.
    Chris,

    When I mentioned the manufacturer of the callipers I was referring to either DBA or Teeves (my understanding of the types of callipers fitted in Australia)... not the manufacturer of the pads.

    Anyway, re your comments above, it could be that the whole mechanism is 'too free', i.e., worn guide pins.

    Just to explain a little further: The DBA type calliper has a single piston on the inboard side and the calliper slides on guide pins to force the outside pad against the rotor. The Teeves type also has a single piston but does not have the guide pins. With the Teeves calliper, the disc pads are kept in contact with the disc through the design of the calliper body - heavy cast iron or perhaps steel (I think) components slotted into each other.

    With the DBA calliper, the casting wears around the guide pins causing uneven pressure on the disc pads, and hence uneven wear.

    It is possible that there are other reasons for the uneven wear but if your vehicle has DBA callipers, I'd say this will be it.

    As I said previously, you can check to see if you can rock the calliper on the guide pins. I've scanned a photo from the Peugeot service manual which I'll send to your email address that shows the guide pins and the two different types of callipers... (guide pins are labelled #4) so you can see if this information is relevant.

    Denis

    <small>[ 16 June 2003, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Denis ]</small>

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