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    mlb
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    Default 505 Points

    I have just changed the points in my 505 and noticed that the points don't contact over their entire faces. The contact on the arm is only half on the stationary contact. Is this normal? If not what can be done to correct it?

    Thanks

    Matt

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    This is a very old design, but a good one...

    The points are what is known as 'self wiping'... the vacuum advance causes the moving point to move across the face of the larger static point, so that (in theory at least) the points won't wear in the one place as quickly.

    They do last very well if you have the right condensor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    This is a very old design, but a good one...

    The points are what is known as 'self wiping'... the vacuum advance causes the moving point to move across the face of the larger static point, so that (in theory at least) the points won't wear in the one place as quickly.

    They do last very well if you have the right condensor.

    a design that is used in the 604 as well so it has to be good
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    The points are what is known as 'self wiping'... the vacuum advance causes the moving point to move across the face of the larger static point, so that (in theory at least) the points won't wear in the one place as quickly.
    So I noticed, the ones I removed had a large groove worn into the static point. They didn't look too old though. May have to check the condensor.
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Make sure you get a Valeo or Ducellier condensor... I think that's the problem when they burn out. Bosch etc are easier to get, but probably not quite right.

    I've had the points in my car now since I did the engine... three and a half years... though for two years I've only had 3 milliamps going through them to trigger electronic ignition. All the same, they're fine. For 300,000kms...

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 505 points...

    Ray,
    What type and make of electronic ignition are you using, also I believe the condenser is discarded with most systems ?

    I have a Lumenition system fitted to a Bosch distributor waiting for that elusive inspiration to fit to my '79 504. This will replace the Ducellier dissy.
    The only misgivings I have is that the ignition curves are different.
    Still, as always, I will ignore all theory and go ahead.

    As an aside, the distributors on some USA spec don't use the vacuum advance. Could this be the answer for 504 owners experiencing severe pinging under acceleration?
    I have fitted a vacuum delay valve [ex Volvo] to my distributor vacuum line to avoid resorting to extreme ign. adjustments.
    It is partially successful but with the ups and downs of fuel quality the pinging occasionally re-occurs.
    Any constructual thoughts out there?

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest

    As an aside, the distributors on some USA spec don't use the vacuum advance. Could this be the answer for 504 owners experiencing severe pinging under acceleration?
    I have fitted a vacuum delay valve [ex Volvo] to my distributor vacuum line to avoid resorting to extreme ign. adjustments.
    It is partially successful but with the ups and downs of fuel quality the pinging occasionally re-occurs.
    Any constructual thoughts out there?
    Have you thought about using water injection on the car to prevent the pinging ?

    there was a great thread in the performance forum about it and i used it on the 604 with great success

    might be worth a shot and it's a very cheap fix (maybe not in the 50c club but still cheap )
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The conversion is home made, using the points as a trigger... works well. A friend of my stepson made it for me.

    He sent me the wiring diagram so anyone could make it, but that's on another computer.

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    I have an electronic pointless ignition setup on my white 505SR that I intend to transfer to my 505GR. It has an electronic module and a crank angle sensor. I've only really had a quick look at the setup so I haven't studied it in detail. Has anyone here had much to do with these and are they any good? Is the conversion worth it? Where physically is the crank angle sensor? The Haynes manual mentioned it reads directly from the crankshaft but I couldn't see this. It is my understanding that most of them read from the flywheel.

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    mlb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Make sure you get a Valeo or Ducellier condensor... I think that's the problem when they burn out. Bosch etc are easier to get, but probably not quite right.

    I've had the points in my car now since I did the engine... three and a half years... though for two years I've only had 3 milliamps going through them to trigger electronic ignition. All the same, they're fine. For 300,000kms...
    Do you happen to know what the supply voltage to the ignition coil is? I have to trim the resistor a bit and I'm not sure if it's had too much of an impact. The supply voltage is currently 5.3v.
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    Also, what type of plugs are people running in their 505's. I intend to run the car on premium unleaded and will be doing around 1,000 kms a week. The ones I just pulled out were rather black and probably could do with replacement.

    Hopefully this will fix the problem I currently have with smooth running. I cannot get the timing mark to remain stationary at around 950 rpm. It shifts from 8 BTDC to TDC as the engine fluctuates. I've so far replaced the points, distributor cap, and rotor. It seems to be rather advanced, and I had a bit of preignition yesterday after a long run. The timing looks good from what I can see, but something is still amiss. Any suggestions?

    Thanks

    Matt
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Shouldn't the coil be getting 8v?

    NGK BP6ES are good... make sure you get the ones with the threaded top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Shouldn't the coil be getting 8v?
    That's what I though. 5v seems a bit low to me.
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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 505 points etc

    Quote Originally Posted by mlb
    Also, what type of plugs are people running in their 505's. I intend to run the car on premium unleaded and will be doing around 1,000 kms a week. The ones I just pulled out were rather black and probably could do with replacement.

    Hopefully this will fix the problem I currently have with smooth running. I cannot get the timing mark to remain stationary at around 950 rpm. It shifts from 8 BTDC to TDC as the engine fluctuates. I've so far replaced the points, distributor cap, and rotor. It seems to be rather advanced, and I had a bit of preignition yesterday after a long run. The timing looks good from what I can see, but something is still amiss. Any suggestions?

    Thanks

    Matt
    Your "shifting" timing marks could possibly be a stiff advance mechanism in the dissy. Another thing your carby may have a carbon deposit on the butterfy affecting the small port in the carb body that supplys vacuum to the distributor. There should be zero vacuum at idle. Check that the idle speed is adjusted at the butterfly and not the mixture screw.
    Some carby cleaner down the throat of the carb may do the job.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Not to mention a worn shaft in the distributor...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Your "shifting" timing marks could possibly be a stiff advance mechanism in the dissy. Another thing your carby may have a carbon deposit on the butterfy affecting the small port in the carb body that supplys vacuum to the distributor. There should be zero vacuum at idle. Check that the idle speed is adjusted at the butterfly and not the mixture screw.
    Some carby cleaner down the throat of the carb may do the job.
    I checked the movement of the advance mechanism by sucking on the advance hose and all seems ok. Carbon deposit in the carby would not surprise me as there is a lot of black crap at the top of it. A lot which I think came from a filthy air filter. And yes, there is no vacuum at idle,mind you not much at revs either. This should not matter though as I am doing the timing with the vacuum advance line off. And the idle is being set at the right screw, and mixture screw is set slightly above what Weber recommend, but this is more due to the smaller jets I would say.

    Looking at the volts going into the coil, they may be a bit low, so I may look at a new ballast resistor and try to bump it up to 8v.

    That coupled with new plugs, just might do it. Next I'll look at condensor, leads, then the coil itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Not to mention a worn shaft in the distributor...
    I wouldn't think so. The engine was given a full recondition less than 18 months ago. And also there is no movement in the timing mark at higher revs - besides the neccesary advancement. I think if I can smooth the running out a bit, it will be easier to tune.
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    the idle screw on the carb should only be just in contact

    the butterfly in a weber should be that close to bieng closed it's not funny if the mixture is set right

    if the idle screw is used to adjust the idle up you will get vacuum at idle

    webers as most other carbs do have an idle circuit but the webers one is one that i have found to be very good so long as the carb is in good condition

    if this was my car i would be going right through the carb to make sure all is in good condition then putting it back on the car to set it all up

    adjust the idle mixture and then the timing

    put it this way on the 604 here i have the idle screw screwed in around 1/2 a turn and the mixture is spot on

    i can pull the plugs from the engine and they are the perfect colour

    if i screw the idle screw in any more i risk having vacuum advance which i don't want at idle

    the engine idles at 900rpm in neutral (car is auto) and all accesories off and at running temp

    rule of thumb with the mixture screw is that if you need to wind it out more than 2 turns the carb needs a bigger idle jet and less than one turn the car needs a smaller idle jet

    out is rich and in is lean

    another test to see if the car is lean or rich at idle is to place something to cover the top of the carb when the car is running effectively choking it and if the car picks up or dies in revs then the mixture is wrong

    revs up then it is lean and dies it is rich

    the car should not stall when doing this

    if it does then you need to look at the idle circuit in the carby

    you only need to do this to the primary choke on a progressive carb
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    the idle screw on the carb should only be just in contact

    the butterfly in a weber should be that close to bieng closed it's not funny if the mixture is set right

    if the idle screw is used to adjust the idle up you will get vacuum at idle

    put it this way on the 604 here i have the idle screw screwed in around 1/2 a turn and the mixture is spot on
    To achieve 900rpm on mine the idle screw needs to be in around 1 1/3 turns

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    if i screw the idle screw in any more i risk having vacuum advance which i don't want at idle
    There is no vacuum at idle as far as I can tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    i can pull the plugs from the engine and they are the perfect colour
    Just changed the plugs and they were pretty black. Ok, very black. Not sure whether this is assisted by running ULP though.


    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    another test to see if the car is lean or rich at idle is to place something to cover the top of the carb when the car is running effectively choking it and if the car picks up or dies in revs then the mixture is wrong

    revs up then it is lean and dies it is rich

    the car should not stall when doing this

    if it does then you need to look at the idle circuit in the carby

    you only need to do this to the primary choke on a progressive carb
    Tried this, covered the primary inlet with my hand. The car died in the clacker, even with my hand only covering 7/8's of the inlet. I reduced the mixture to 1 1/2 turns and it still died and the car ran a rough as guts. Might be time to lash and buy a carby kit.

    Thanks

    Matt
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I thought reading plugs had gone by the board since the petrol situation changed?

    Unleaded burns black, LRP a variety of colours depending on how bad it is...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    I thought reading plugs had gone by the board since the petrol situation changed?

    Unleaded burns black, LRP a variety of colours depending on how bad it is...
    That's what I thought, hence the dark colour of my tail pipe and plugs not causing me too much concern. But then again there is black and then there is BLACK.
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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 505 points...

    Matt.
    Reading through the last few posts have jolted my grey matter.
    Ray mentioned a worn distributor shaft, a good possibility.
    Pugrambo went for the jugular, the Weber. Yes, the butterfly or idle adjustment is sensitive. I think it may have something to with this carbs use on the Fords. The Escorts had vacuum to the distributor at idle. The initial adj mentioned by Pugrambo is to make sure the butterfly is not "resting" agaimst the throat of the carby.
    By the way your suck test on the vacuum advance will only prove that this is working. The mechanical advance deep in the bowels of the dissy works independantly by a system of bob weights [gimbals?] with spring tension.
    It is this that I eluded to as having seized or partly so. This will mean removing the dissy, holding the top of the shaft and while attempting to rotate the dirty drive end, look into the distributor to see if the weights are moving outwards and returning freely. CRC sprayed in that area may free them if they are siezed.
    You then carried out a test to check the idle mixture? Well to keep it within one of the "50cent Fixers Club" ideas, remove the primary idle jet holder with its push fit jet. Pull the jet out of the holder and give it a good blow out, refit the jet in the holder BUT ONLY PART WAY! This ensures that when the jet holder is screwed back into the carby the jet will seat itself up against the inside of the idle jet passage. If it is not seated it will have the same effect as a large idle jet, this will not only give a rough idle but also effect the progression until the main jet comes into play.

    Make sure the jet holder O ring is in good condition.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    By the way your suck test on the vacuum advance will only prove that this is working. The mechanical advance deep in the bowels of the dissy works independantly by a system of bob weights [gimbals?] with spring tension.
    It is this that I eluded to as having seized or partly so. This will mean removing the dissy, holding the top of the shaft and while attempting to rotate the dirty drive end, look into the distributor to see if the weights are moving outwards and returning freely. CRC sprayed in that area may free them if they are siezed.
    When I increase the revs without the vacuum advance connected, the timing advances quite considerably and returns to its original position when the revs are reduced. Would this not show that the centrifugal advance is working properly?

    Matt
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    Default What type of BOScH dizzy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Ray,
    What type and make of electronic ignition are you using, also I believe the condenser is discarded with most systems ?

    I have a Lumenition system fitted to a Bosch distributor waiting for that elusive inspiration to fit to my '79 504. This will replace the Ducellier dissy.
    The only misgivings I have is that the ignition curves are different.
    Still, as always, I will ignore all theory and go ahead.

    As an aside, the distributors on some USA spec don't use the vacuum advance. Could this be the answer for 504 owners experiencing severe pinging under acceleration?
    I have fitted a vacuum delay valve [ex Volvo] to my distributor vacuum line to avoid resorting to extreme ign. adjustments.
    It is partially successful but with the ups and downs of fuel quality the pinging occasionally re-occurs.
    Any constructual thoughts out there?

    Hi Beest,

    I'm very interested in electroic ignition.

    I know there is no ready conversion for Ducellier, unless it is imported.

    You mentioned a Bosh distributor - electronic conversion readily available- what car did the dizzy come come from ??

    I was looking at a Volvo Bosch dizzy but the drive arrangements look different.
    The prox sensor looks like it's made for the job 'tho.

    My experience is the advance curves make very little difference provided their is plenty of advance once the engine is revving <2500 RPM
    I'm surprised with the pinging - what is your intitial advance (vacuum disconnected) ? Are you running hi octane ?

    regards


    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlb
    When I increase the revs without the vacuum advance connected, the timing advances quite considerably and returns to its original position when the revs are reduced. Would this not show that the centrifugal advance is working properly?

    Matt

    the vacuum advance may need adjusting in the dissy

    i don't have the specs here but i am sure someone will come out with them
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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