504 Extractors
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Thread: 504 Extractors

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    504 Extractors

    Hi there all, iam in the process of looking for a set of extractors to suit a 504 engine.
    If anyone has a set they are interested in selling or know where they can be sourced from or made, id be more than happy to hear from you.

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    What price would i be looking at for a set??
    Darren

  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    darren
    try and get hold of the victorian pug car club
    there is a bloke down there which i can't remember his name off hand but phil torode down there would know but he makes all sorts of extractors for 504's
    from what i have heard he is pretty good at it
    if not ask dave mcbean on this forum he will have a good idea as well for you
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  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I think you might mean Ivan Washington...

    I spent some time with Ivan yesterday and he's no longer making the extractors. His view is that "What I do these days I will do for myself..."

    He's getting on and has a number of his own projects to complete. Maybe somebody can get his specs etc from him and continue the good work?

    By the way, he said he got a nice gain by simply increasing the pipe size out of the standard 504 manifold. Rather like the way the pipe size on the 505s is bigger, I suspect.

    His self-made Buchanan-bodied sporty car is nice, has a 2.4 Jag engine in it...

  4. #4
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Yeah, Ivan Washington is the fellow. His 4-2-1 extractors are about the best you'll find in Australia, but they're not cheap ($350+), if you can find any.

    Custom making extractors is not cheap either ($500+). It's not as easy to do on our right hand drive cars because the steering column gets in the way a bit. In France and Argentina there are a number of nice extractor/header systems available. The 504TN in Argentina came standard with a nice set of extractors, which together with its 36mm dual throat Solex Carb and different camshaft gave it the same power as a 504TI.

    The early big-bore 505 manifold and down pipe (pre-1982) is supposed to be quite good on a standard 504 (and even highly modified ones), but again some people try to charge ridiculous prices for them.

    If you can't get a cheap 505 manifold, the most cost effective thing to do would be to add a long big bore down pipe to the standard manifold (similar diamter and length to 505 set-up).

    No matter what set-up you use, you will usually need to recalibrate the carb or injection system to get the full benefit of the better exhaust manifold.

    On my 504 I have a fabricated tubular 4 into 1 exhaust manifold (they're not proper extractors, because they're a very unequal length) which was part of a batch custom made for members of the NSW pug club in the late 1970s. They are a slight improvement, but they're pretty rough in both design and build quality. I have another set of 504/404 4 into 1 "extractors) (Ian Robinson's design?) which are also a rough design (too short), which I plan to lengthen and
    make into a set of 4 into 2 into 1 interference extractors ("Tri-Y headers").

    I also have an equation which allows you to calculate the correct length for custom made headers/extractors which takes into account the camshaft timing, revs, engine size etc. I will be putting it up on my website in a month or two.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  5. #5
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I just found a copy of a letter I recently sent to a friend which outlines using the extractor equation to lengthen the standard manifold downpipe, which may be of use to you:

    "I've just been thinking about the exhaust manifold. Technically, with the Wade cam, the engine pipe system should be slightly longer than the 505 setup. Rather than buy a 505 manifold and new engine pipe, it might be better to make up a long (big bore?) engine pipe to fit the standard 504 manifold.

    The equation for calculating tuned lengths (from exhaust valve to the final Y piece of the engine pipe) is:

    length in feet=(AxSxDxD)/(Cxdxd)

    where:
    A = total exhaust cam duration in degrees(i.e. 266.5 degrees for Wade 112 cam)
    S = crank stroke in inches
    D = cylinder bore in inches
    d = exhaust port diameter in inches
    C = 1400 to 1700 (i.e. a figure close to 1400 gives a longer length for more low down torque, while a figure close to 1700 gives a high rev benefit).

    Because the internal lengths of the manifold differ by as much as 26cm, the rear cylinder will always be tuned to a higher rev figure, while the front cylinder will be a low rev one. I guess the designers figure that it doesn't matter too much on a single carb plenum chamber engine.

    You will find that using C = 1400 the tuned length will come out at about 1300mm (including the internal length of the exhaust port). If you use this as the length for the front cylinder, you will find that the rear cylinder will end up having a pipe which has C a value of closer to 1700). I guess the main thing is that all the cylinders fall within this range. On a multi carb racing engine all the lengths should be equal of course.

    By my estimates, there is just enough room to fit an engine pipe with tuned lengths of this size, before the first muffler of the 504 (with out resorting to bending the pipe more than the original set up)."

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  6. #6
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Note the equation that I outlined above gives the total length from the exhaust valve to the end of the twin engine pipes (i.e. subtract the length of the ports and the manifold runners, to get the length of the engine/downpipe twin pipes).

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  7. #7
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    Dave,
    What is your opinion of the 404 "under the cross member" extractors?
    Colin Hague, here in Melbourne is attempting to fit a 505 manifold to a 404, by machining the outlet face at an angle. I paid $15 for one of these manifolds at the PCCV annual auction. Otherwise Pick a Part is a good source. I really think that there would be very little to be gained by going from this set up to full extractors. A mate with a rally 142 Volvo recently got a substantial power increase by reverting to the standard manifold.
    Ray, I have just fitted your 4.11 diff to a 504 and will be doing the Alpine rally in it this weekend, the V6 had a last minute problem after being ready for weeks.
    Dave,it really goes well with the B280 engine.

    Regards, Graham Wallis

  8. #8
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Graham,

    I have a set of 404 4 into 1 "under the cross member extractors", which are the ones I mentioned above as being too short (and which I plan to lengthen into 4 into 2 into one extractors).

    If these are these ones you mean, then my opinion of them is not very high. They are way too short even for an 8000rpm+ racing engine. They also differ by about 120mm in length between the front cylinder pipe and the rear one. I do know people who have used them before and found an improvement over the standard small bore 404/504 manifold, but I can't see how they would be anywhere near as good as the 505 big bore manifold and engine pipe. As you said, the 505 big bore manifold seems pretty hard to beat (especially on our RHD cars). John Leppard's 504 Coupe rally car which he entered in last year's London to Sydney rally had a very well built 150hp, 190Nm engine which used the standard 505 big bore manifold and engine pipe. If you've ever seen the genuine European Ford RS2000 Mk2 exhaust manifold, it's very very similar, and many people use that on high output Escort rally cars.

    If I lengthen my 404 "under the cross member" extractors into a 4 into 2 into 1 system, I'll make them curl back up over themselves so that they meet up with the flange near the steering column, which my present set-up uses. There's a bit of work involved, so it may be quite a while before I get around to it (if ever). If I find another cheap 505 manifold, I'll buy it (I recently gave one away).

    Good to hear that your 2.85 goes well.
    Good luck in your other car this weekend.

    Regards,
    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  9. #9
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Nice to know you're happy with the diff, it was the following Monday I learned the extractors are no longer produced...

    Shame...

  10. #10
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    I've been curious about something. On my XN6 I've noticed the intake ports are relatively large and direct while the exhaust ports seem a bit small. Also, the downpipes merge after only about 20cm... at which point the O2 sensor mounts.

    Do you guys have any recommendations for the exhaust ports? Also, which cars came equipped with the big bore exhaust manifold. I'm curious to know if my US '84 XN6 would have it, or if I could bolt one on with no modification. I have a spare, I could measure it if necessary (to find out what kind it is).

    I'm also very interested in some longer downpipes (like the pics I've seem of the late XN1 or XN1A).

    What did your "XN6" have? Did it use the short downpipes too?

    -Joe

  11. #11
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Joe,

    You can't really take much material out of the exhaust ports because the water jacket is in close proximity. The bottom of the port is a bit low anyway (as far as getting a nice smooth cormer from the back of the valve), so the most I would dare take out is about 2mm from the top of the port. It's also a good idea to taper the ends of the vlave guides and remove some of the excess alloy around the valve guide, which is only there for easy of machining during production (you need to press the guide out to do this nicely). You can also smooth out the area within 10mm of the valve seat insert, but be carefull not to remove too much material from the short side corner of the port, because this corner is already too tight. If your engine has the 35.5mm exhaust valves (I'm assuming the XN6 is the same as the XN1 and XN2), then you can put slightly larger valves and seats in, which allows you to make the short side radius of the port a fraction larger, as well as giving a little extra flow through the valve. I don't think you can go any larger than about 2mm larger valve seat external diameter, without taking too much material away.

    If your engine has the lump on the bottom of the port (some anti-emissions engines have this, but I'm not sure about the XN6), you can grindo that away to. It is best to use a steel burr mounted in a die grinder to remove any alloy, because stones clog too easily (and break up) and normal hand drills are a bit unwieldy for fine work. You can also clean up the area within 10mm of the inlet valve seat and take care of the valve guide area as per the exhaust port. As you said the inlet ports are alreay quite large, and should not be made any larger.

    The "big-bore" 505 exhaust manifold and long down pipe was fitted to XN1 505s made in Australia from 1980-1982, after that I've been told that all 505s sold here had the small short set-up (the XN6 arrived here in 1986 when we got unleaded fuel). A Canadian guy I've been speaking to via email told me that North American 505s were fitted with the big bore long down pipe manifold after about 1984 or 85, so that might give you an idea of what to look out for.

    The big bore manifold always has the long down pipes (as far as I know) and the small bore manifold always has the short down pipes.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'm sure that David once posted somewhere that the XN6 also had the larger bore manifold. Seems that they have shortened the merging pipes, however, probably for the ease of installation of the sensor. I'll measure the gaskets when I get a chance and tell you what size the out bore would be on each of the manifolds.. I have one of each gasket in my kit.

  13. #13
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I wouldn't have a clue what the Australian XN6 has for an exhaust manifold, although I've been told that only early Australian 505s had the big bore manifold.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts
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    Hi guys,

    Just for info. if you ARE limited to using stones and a drill for porting, I've done a couple of heads with just a good drill (with ball bearings in the workings, not bushes), vice mounted, with one of those flexible drives with the chuck on the end. Admittedly, the stones do eventually clog with ally requiring running on a wire brush, but fortunately most of my work was on iron.

    As an aside, the O2 sensors are deliberately placed as close as possible to the exhaust port so that they warm up as quickly as possible. The material it's made of doesn't become conductive until it reaches a certain temperature - ie. it doesn't work. This might be why the manifold is designed with the join so close, as the sensor has to be close, but getting exhaust from all cylinders. This isn't so much a factor on heated sensors. All it means is that the mixture isn't as finely controlled until the sensor warms - probably of no practical issue except for emissions.

    Cheers

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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