505 spring rates?
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 33
  1. #1
    Tadpole rally504's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Adelaide/South Australia
    Posts
    13

    Default 505 spring rates?

    Hey Guys,

    My first post on the forums.

    Advertisement


    I am in the process of fitting 505 front struts to my 504 rally car and want to know whether the 505 standard springs will be stiffer than the 504 injected springs.

    As i understand it the injected spring rate is 67 lbs/in. How does this compare with the standard 505 spring rates?

    Also fitting the swaybar, all new joints, bushes and bumpstops, LIP gas tech strut inserts and the steering rack.

    Any help and advice is appreciated.

    Thanks, Justin.

  2. #2
    Member LynCliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Cohuna Victoria
    Posts
    94

    Default

    I think the 504 springs are a bit stiffer than standard 505 springs but without the idetifying colors I can't be shore. I have a factory workshop maual that gives spring rate according to marked color but mostly these have worn off. I have been running a 504 as a rally car for about 8 months now and fitted the car with a 505 diesel front-end including the power steering.The car sat too high with these springs so initially one full turn was cut from them (one end) but have since removed another turn from the other end. This gives a firm ride with good turn in on the gravel but still not satisfied with this set- up.
    The springs I will trying next when I can obtain them will be 505 STI one's, these are firmer wirh a lower ride height. Actualy if I can get the complete (505STI) Struts, Control Arms & Caster Bars I will fit these to get more negative camber. It's presently got about 1.5deg neg and would like to get about 4deg.
    LynCliff

  3. #3
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Camden NSW & Selwyn NZ
    Posts
    2,334

    Default

    FRONT SPRINGS

    505 carby and early STI:

    1 blue stripe or 1 yellow and 1 white strip are 86.7 mm/100daN
    which translates to approx 66lbs/in

    1 green or 1 yellow stripe are 85mm/100daN
    translates to approx 67lbs/in



    505 GTI and late STI (84 onwards with negative camber struts):

    2 red or 2 blue stripes 66.3mm/daN
    which tranlsates to approx 86lbs/in


    504 and 505 diesel front springs

    65mm/daN which translates to approx 88lbs/in (similar stiffness but much taller than GTI springs)


    REAR SPRINGS

    old 504 springs approx 170-180lbs/in

    original French 504 springs 200-230lbs/in

    old 505 carby and early STI springs 190-200lbs/in

    505 GTI and late STI (early 84 onwards) 254lbs/in


    The biggest improvement in handling on a 504 is made by fitting stiffer springs to the rear. Even springs around 200lbs/in make a big difference.

    My 504 with GTI springs all around performed really well on dirt.

    I think the 504 rear swaybar (18mm-same as 505 GTI) is better for dirt than the 19mm 604 rear bar.

    Dave
    Last edited by davemcbean; 6th January 2005 at 04:52 PM.
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Ralph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Wodonga
    Posts
    928

    Icon7

    Dave,

    What does the da infront of the Newtons mean? It's not an SI prefix I've seen before used this way. As per the standard da means deci atto, N means Newtons. When you say approx 66lbs/in does this mean 66lbs are required to compress the spring one inch? Is this linear over the range of the spring's compression? Im not trying to be a biatch, just curious and requiring clarification.

    Matt.
    On the internet, no one knows that you are only wearing a fez.

  5. #5
    Tadpole rally504's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Adelaide/South Australia
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Thankyou for the info and advice. I am led to yet more questions.

    My local wrecker has three 505's in the yard, two of them being STI models. I know one is an '83 but i will check on the other. The stiffer springs would be nice.

    As I understand it all 505's have negative camber on the front. Is this correct? Is there going to be a difference in the standard 505 struts as oppossed to the early and late model STI ones?

    Also, how do the 505 STI front swaybars compare to the standard 505 swaybar?

    I read on a thread that peujohn had the shorter 504 radius/castor rods fitted with the longer 505 trailing arms to give more castor and camber. I understand this will put more stress on the bushes and am curious to hear if anyone else has any experience with this.

    Finally in peoples opinions is there anything else i should think about grabbing from the STI's while im at the wrecker.

    Thanks, Justin

  6. #6
    Member LynCliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Cohuna Victoria
    Posts
    94

    Default

    The STI front swaybar is 27mm in diameter as compared to 25-26 for GR's depending on year. The early 505GR didn't have Neg camber struts but when fitted to the narrower 504 body give about 1 to 1.5 deg neg due to the longer control arms, The same for 604 struts.

    STI.s from at least 83 had about 1.5 deg neg added on the axle shaft so when fitted to 504's would give more like 3 deg neg. These struts are completly different to early 505-604 struts with different bottom ball joints and control arms and would have to be used complete.

    For a road car set up the early strut's are fine but for rally work I think the extra neg would get asymetric rally tyres biting better in corners.

    STI rear springs are shorter so will give a lower ride height and hence more neg camber at the rear. If you want "more" rear neg camber you could shim out the bottom of the hubs.

    LynCliff

  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Camden NSW & Selwyn NZ
    Posts
    2,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph
    What does the da infront of the Newtons mean?
    Ten newtons, 100daN is the same as a kN, why they just didn't write it as mm/kN is beyond me. The Europeans like to use weird units even more than the Americans.

    Despite the fact that France pioneered metric and SI, it often seems that it's the countries in the British Commonwealth of Nations together with the east Asian nations who are the most dedicated to the SI system.

    The lbs/in is based on a straight conversion from mm/100daN, which itself is probably an average taken over 100mm of compression or so.

    The figures you see quoted in spring catalogs can be based on either the American system or the British system. One measure the lbs taken to compress the first inch or so, the other compresses an inch then measures the next inch or something like that. I can't remember which is which.

    Dave
    Last edited by davemcbean; 8th January 2005 at 11:37 AM.
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  8. #8
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Camden NSW & Selwyn NZ
    Posts
    2,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LynCliff
    STI.s from at least 83 had about 1.5 deg neg added on the axle shaft so when fitted to 504's would give more like 3 deg neg. These struts are completly different to early 505-604 struts with different bottom ball joints and control arms and would have to be used complete.
    To avoid the 3 degree figure on a 504, use the lower control arms from a late model overseas 504, rather than 505 arms. I obtained some from Argentina.

    83 model STIs and other 505s of that year have the later type ball joint, but the axle is still in the positive camber position.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  9. #9
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean
    To avoid the 3 degree figure on a 504, use the lower control arms from a late model overseas 504, rather than 505 arms. I obtained some from Argentina.

    83 model STIs and other 505s of that year have the later type ball joint, but the axle is still in the positive camber position.

    Dave
    Can you give me your Argentina contact Dave?
    I want to get negative camber without the increase in track caused by the 505 lower arms. You can't increase the rear track due to body width restrictions and I don't like the resulting differences in track. Also the wider track makes it harder to drive on narrow tracks. STI springs will raise the back of a 504 due to lighter weight but not as much as the GR springs. You forgot to mention the 504 spring rate?
    Graham

  10. #10
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Lilydale, Melbourne
    Posts
    2,095

    Default

    Justin, I'll reply to your pm here.

    The 505 control arms with the 504 caster bars works well but does have some bad points. The bushes aren't lined up properly so they wear more quickly, and also on full-lock right hand the driver's side wheel tucks under and sometimes won't come out unless you get out of the car and grab the wheel and pull it out by hand. I'm going to put power steering on my car soon and when I do I'll fit the 505 caster bars. So I won't have the positive caster but I think it will be better overall.

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  11. #11
    Tadpole rally504's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Adelaide/South Australia
    Posts
    13

    Default

    I believe, from dave's website, that the 504 front spring rates are 65lbs/in for the carby and 67lbs/in for the TI.

    The other STI at the wrecker is an october '84. It's springs have the two blue stripes. I already have the front swaybar and am going to get the front struts and rear springs tomorrow.

    I am going to put the STI springs into the GR struts as I have already rebuilt them with new joints and bushes. I will also put the STI rear springs in.

    Will the front sit any lower with the STI springs?

    I really appreciate your guys responses. I have learn't alot very fast.

    Thanks, Justin.

  12. #12
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rally504
    I believe, from dave's website, that the 504 front spring rates are 65lbs/in for the carby and 67lbs/in for the TI.

    The other STI at the wrecker is an october '84. It's springs have the two blue stripes. I already have the front swaybar and am going to get the front struts and rear springs tomorrow.

    I am going to put the STI springs into the GR struts as I have already rebuilt them with new joints and bushes. I will also put the STI rear springs in.

    Will the front sit any lower with the STI springs?

    I really appreciate your guys responses. I have learn't alot very fast.

    Thanks, Justin.

    Thanks, I should have noticed this in your original posting. Actually this a bit strange as most 504s have 8.5 turn springs whereas the 505 GR are 7.5 I think the wire diameter is the same so the 505 should be stiffer.
    The double blues are what you want and the front will probably sit a little higher, good for rallying, is this want you want to do with it?
    Graham

  13. #13
    Tadpole rally504's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Adelaide/South Australia
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Yes i do rally it.

    I started doing some club level rallies and khanacrosses last year with the car in almost standard configuration. It was an LTI but i converted it to the 4 speed manual with the 3.89 carby diff. When i had it tuned it put out 80 hp at the wheels. Other than that I have stripped it out, removed two of the three muflers, put new shockers in the rear and am running on a set of Aussport Remould rally tires.

    It has the usual rally mods; big mudflaps, sump guard, roof vent, rear quarter dents and speed rust.

    The car looks the part and is very competitive with much more highly modified dattos.

    I am saving for a car trailer at the moment and hope later in the year to put full Bond cage in it so i can compete in some state rallies.

    Justin.

  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223

    Default

    Does anyone have any idea about 504 diesel springs?

    I'm sure a pair of struts I have here are from one, but the springs seem different to each other.

  15. #15
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rally504
    Yes i do rally it.

    I started doing some club level rallies and khanacrosses last year with the car in almost standard configuration. It was an LTI but i converted it to the 4 speed manual with the 3.89 carby diff. When i had it tuned it put out 80 hp at the wheels. Other than that I have stripped it out, removed two of the three muflers, put new shockers in the rear and am running on a set of Aussport Remould rally tires.

    It has the usual rally mods; big mudflaps, sump guard, roof vent, rear quarter dents and speed rust.

    The car looks the part and is very competitive with much more highly modified dattos.

    I am saving for a car trailer at the moment and hope later in the year to put full Bond cage in it so i can compete in some state rallies.

    Justin.

    I may see you if you go to Broken Hill, Rob Dyer and I took a 504 TI up there last year and had a great time.
    Do you know Chris Jones, he rallied a 404 in SA a few years ago.
    Graham

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! boodek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Wodonga, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    343

    Default

    What about the struts on late 505 GTi/Family wagons? My 1990 Familiale (with 15" steel rims) has a huge amount of negative camber - it looks quite good!
    Ben.
    _ _________________ _
    A very fun 1997 manual 406 ST
    A lovely 2006 407 HDi Executive

  17. #17
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Parkes - N.S.W - Australia - Earth
    Posts
    12,269

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Does anyone have any idea about 504 diesel springs?

    I'm sure a pair of struts I have here are from one, but the springs seem different to each other.

    the diesel ones are heavier but i don't have the specs on hand

    i do know though that they are no good for a petrol 504 for road use unless you shorten them as they tend to sit the fron end up in the air, a bit like 604 springs in a 504

    but for a rally car i would say you could use them and put longer lower arms in to obtain the right camber

    BTW standard 604 springs in a petrol 504 will sit the front end up around 3" from standard height and are also heavier then the original 504 springs

    been there done that
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Ralph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Wodonga
    Posts
    928

    Icon7

    Justin,


    I'm assuming you've taken off the two rear mufflers and left the big one under the centre of the car. What does it sound like and is it excessively noisy? How did you go replacing the support that hangs off the last muffler, did you have much trouble?

    Matt.
    On the internet, no one knows that you are only wearing a fez.

  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223

    Default

    Okay... I now understand why I thought the diesel springs were different...

    I only had one diesel strut before me, the similar (but not the same) strut must have been off something else.

    Diesel springs are coded red and blue. Found the other one this morning.

  20. #20
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph
    Justin,


    I'm assuming you've taken off the two rear mufflers and left the big one under the centre of the car. What does it sound like and is it excessively noisy? How did you go replacing the support that hangs off the last muffler, did you have much trouble?

    Matt.

    More likely left the rear one on, the centre one is very prone to hitting things. I am in the process of getting a set of rear springs made for the 505 V6. I had given up on it after the last rally but have recovered enough enthusiam to try and get it to handle a little better. It has works front springs (from one of the 1977 L-S marathon 504s) but the rear works springs were too high and stiff, being designed for carrying a very heavy load of people, spares and fuel. As a result we fitted a standard 505 STI rear end and the result is a car with ponderous handling which will only go around corners with the help of the application of power.
    The car will also be corner weighed to get an idea of the weight distribution. It will be very interesting to see where a 505 with a V6, no internal trim and a full roll cage ends up!
    The springs will cost $160 a pair.
    Graham

  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Parkes - N.S.W - Australia - Earth
    Posts
    12,269

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph
    Justin,


    I'm assuming you've taken off the two rear mufflers and left the big one under the centre of the car. What does it sound like and is it excessively noisy? How did you go replacing the support that hangs off the last muffler, did you have much trouble?

    Matt.

    i had a 504TI with a 2" exhaust on it with only one straight through muffler in the centre and a hot dog at the rear

    the car was extemely noisey but had a nice note to it

    people could hear the car coming from a couple of miles away (no joke) and the police didn't seem to appreciate the noise level

    as for the performance between that system and the standard well.......

    the car before was like driving a normal TI but afterwards the car went very well

    this car got myself (father was a passenger) from bathurst to sitting in a chinese restaurant in goulburn in 2 hrs going through trunkey creek, tuena and crookwell back in 92 after a 12 hour race in bathurst

    the road back then wasn't as kind as it is today and had a bit more dirt

    this same car also sat on 200km/h from goulburn to marulan with father in the front and mother in the back seat while having a burn with Roger Kreft (sp?) in his warmed over 5spd TI

    so the exhaust did make a difference

    the only other mod i ever did to that car was lower it and stiffen up the suspension so i handled very well (sign post to sign post on maquarie pass in a tad under 5mins every time)
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  22. #22
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    i had a 504TI with a 2" exhaust on it with only one straight through muffler in the centre and a hot dog at the rear

    the car was extemely noisey but had a nice note to it

    people could hear the car coming from a couple of miles away (no joke) and the police didn't seem to appreciate the noise level

    as for the performance between that system and the standard well.......

    the car before was like driving a normal TI but afterwards the car went very well

    this car got myself (father was a passenger) from bathurst to sitting in a chinese restaurant in goulburn in 2 hrs going through trunkey creek, tuena and crookwell back in 92 after a 12 hour race in bathurst

    the road back then wasn't as kind as it is today and had a bit more dirt

    this same car also sat on 200km/h from goulburn to marulan with father in the front and mother in the back seat while having a burn with Roger Kreft (sp?) in his warmed over 5spd TI

    so the exhaust did make a difference

    the only other mod i ever did to that car was lower it and stiffen up the suspension so i handled very well (sign post to sign post on maquarie pass in a tad under 5mins every time)

    You obviously didn't have the same traffic that we did the other day!
    Graham

  23. #23
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Parkes - N.S.W - Australia - Earth
    Posts
    12,269

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    You obviously didn't have the same traffic that we did the other day!
    Graham

    the run from bathurst that day was after the race so it was late afternoon and it wasn't long before the sun started to set so the run was done in the darkness of the night for the majority of it

    we were warned not to take that road as it was not car friendly and it had signs stating not to take caravans along there

    it had rocks on the road the size of bread plates and some a little bigger, there were holes and corrogations for a lot of the road

    i'll admit i had a barrel of fun that night in that car on that road and my father who hasn't been in a car on a road like that at that speed since his days with Jack Nelson as he has never felt safe enough in car in that situation since those days actually enjoyed himself and still to this day doesn't hesitate to tell people the story

    that car was the one that inspired me to go ahead with the V6 504 later on but the project actually started out as a 404 V6 but the though of having a V6 in a 404 body didn't do a lot for me as it would take too much work in my opinion to get a 404 to handle the V6 where as the 504 was relatively easy to do
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  24. #24
    Tadpole rally504's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Adelaide/South Australia
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph
    Justin,


    I'm assuming you've taken off the two rear mufflers and left the big one under the centre of the car. What does it sound like and is it excessively noisy? How did you go replacing the support that hangs off the last muffler, did you have much trouble?

    Matt.
    I did indeed take off the two rear mufflers and left the big one on. I can see straight through it so it can't be providing too much restriction. The car is ok to drive around under light throttle but as soon as you hit the power it is very loud. It has a very 'barky' rally car type sound to it which i really like. Im trying to find an early model 505 big bore manifold and front pipe to which i will have a two inch system with a single straight through muffler fitted.

    I got the exhaust shop to bend up a piece to replace the mufflers and got them to weld the rear support in the same place. The car does perform better, it has a bit more torque and revs through easier.

    I now have a set of '84 505 STI springs and will fit them soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    I may see you if you go to Broken Hill, Rob Dyer and I took a 504 TI up there last year and had a great time.
    Do you know Chris Jones, he rallied a 404 in SA a few years ago.
    Graham
    My best case scenario is to be competing in state rallies by the end of the year. I'm in my final year of university so chances are it won't happen untill next year. I heard on the grapevine that there was a pug at Broken Hill. I might have to come for a look even if im not driving this year. No, I haven't heard of Chris Jones. Are there many peugeots rallied in Victoria?

    As well, what air filters do people recommend for a rally driven 504 TI? It currently has the steel mesh oil type and i was thinking of putting a pod filter or similar on.

    Thanks, Justin.

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Dubbo NSW
    Posts
    198

    Default

    [QUOTE=rally504]

    It has the usual rally mods; big mudflaps, sump guard, roof vent, rear quarter dents and speed rust.

    Hi Rally504,

    I need a sump guard for my 504. Any chance you give me a run down (plan)or perhaps a photo of the guard. What you built it out of and how you fitted it? Do you know anything about a front centre towing point as well?

    Peter J.
    PJ

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •