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  1. #1
    mlb
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    Default What Have They Been Doing?

    OK. I have just spent today going over my new car, just to see what's what and to prioritise what I need to do. What I discovered is quite interesting. There has been quite a few modifications made to the car, and not neccessarily good. Instead of a Solex, it has Weber carby fitted, I am yet to find out which one. Because of the increased height, the bellows in the air box has been rubbing on the inside of the bonnet to the point where it has eroded some of the steel. There has been an electric fuel pump fitted, the only reason for which I can think of is to increase the supply to the Weber, either that or they couldn't find an original replacement.

    The wiring is a shambles, with wires going everywhere, some loose ends and some that have just been chopped.

    The car is also running an electric fan. No not in place of the original thermo coupled fan, which is still there, but in front of the A/C condenser, with bolts passing through the fins to mount it!.

    Where am I getting with this I hear you ask. Well I was wondering if anyone would have any photos of how a 505 is supposed to look under the bonnet, or know where I can find some. Then I can have a starting point. My plan is to get this car back to how it should be, and not looking like a dogs breakfast under the hood.

    Thanks

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    Matt
    Last edited by mlb; 5th January 2005 at 10:31 PM.
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    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    Hey Matt,

    If you get really stuck I can bring my SR wagon up next week so you can have a gander, Mi16 is my chosen vehicle for the trip, but am happy to bring the SR if it would help you at all!

    Also have a couple of Solex Timma's here in the shed, they would need kitting though i would say, took one off an 80 505 I have hear and could never get it going well. In saying that the Weber is not a bad mod on them really.

    Cheers

    Ben
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    mlb
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    Thanks Ben,

    My main concern with the Weber is whether or not it will have a dramatic effect on fuel consumption as I will be running to and from Launceston each day. Also I would like to refit the mechanical fuel pump if possible and I am not sure if the Weber needs an increase in fuel flow provided by the electric one. All going well, it would not be bad to keep the Weber,providing I can make a few adjustments in the fit.

    Thanks for the offer for the Solex's as well as to bring your 505 up. I wouldn't worry about it at this stage, although depending on the timing and your location, I wouldn't mind catching up to pick your mind a bit. We'll see how it goes.

    Thanks Again

    Matt
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    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlb
    with bolts passing through the fins to mount it!.

    Matt
    fairly normal way to attach them really, just dont miss and put them through the tubes.
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    mlb
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    Yeah I figured that on further reflection. It just seemed a tad extreme to me at the time, and in light of the other things I'd seen under the bonnet it seemed to be in keeping with the standard of workmanship and attention to detail the car had been subjected to in the past. Can't wait to see what I find tomorrow.
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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default What Have They Been Doing?

    Matt,
    From where I am it would seem that the previous owner may have made a bad choice of Weber. Some Webers are taller than others because of a thick alloy base. This could be why the plastic "hood" etc is touching the bonnet.
    The usual choice of Weber for this conversion is the 2 litre Escort/Cortina type. With some fettling the air cleaner will fit.
    The jetting should be as near as dammit correct, 2 litre Pug. 2litre Cortina!
    I fitted smaller idle jets to mine chasing a bit more economy. '79 504 auto.

    The Weber will be happy with the original fuel pump. You are probably right about the electric pump.
    Do yourself a BIG favour, check the security of the carby inlet spout, they have been known to drop out. Whoof !! On any conversions I have done I replace these with a threaded fitting available from hydraulic shops. The one I use has a 6mm spout this lets you use the standard size fuel hose, 6mm.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Possible reason for the electric pump was failure of the mechanical pump... and irritation with the rotten oil leaks you get through them.

    The Weber changeover is reputed to give a tad better fuel consumption.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    so long as the electric pump is a pressure pump and not a high flow pump all should be ok

    does it tick when you turn the ignition on ?

    i'd keep the electric pump as they are more reliable than the mechanical pumps

    i doubt it was fitted for an increase of fuel supply but maybe it was as the old pump died and wasn't supplying anything

    as for the weber they are fine

    they give less trouble than the solex and parts are more readily available for them

    if you can take a pic a pick of the engine with the air cleaner on and one with it off and post it up here

    you may be better off with an early 504 oil bath air cleaner for the car as they sit lower on the top of the carby

    i'd say they may have even put a plate between the carb and manifold

    webers do return better fuel consumption figures if they are tuned corectly and once in tune they hardly ever fail

    they also can give better performance

    french electrics are a nightmare

    from the factory there are wires everywhere and nothing looks neat

    just make sure everything is clean and any contacts for any relays are clean and check every earth point you can find to make sure it has good contact

    give the car an oil change and a coolant change before you do too much else
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    mlb
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    does it tick when you turn the ignition on ?
    Yes it does tick, quite maddeningly. (although not when there is no fuel as I found out, Have to adjust the fuel gauge also)

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    if you can take a pic a pick of the engine with the air cleaner on and one with it off and post it up here
    Will do sometime today.

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    you may be better off with an early 504 oil bath air cleaner for the car as they sit lower on the top of the carby

    i'd say they may have even put a plate between the carb and manifold
    I cannot see a plate under the carby, it looks like it's a straight bolt on job.

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    french electrics are a nightmare
    So I noticed, although I think the frogs had a bit of help with this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    give the car an oil change and a coolant change before you do too much else
    On the top of my to do list today. I'm planning to do the crankcase and gearbox oil, oil, air and fuel filter, as well as flush and clean the coolant. I think that will cover it. As well as change the dodgy points.

    Thanks

    Matt
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    mlb
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    if you can take a pic a pick of the engine with the air cleaner on and one with it off and post it up here
    Ok, photos as promised.
    I've included a few of the electrics too, just to get opinions.

    Matt
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Have They Been Doing?-dsc00299.jpg   What Have They Been Doing?-dsc00301.jpg   What Have They Been Doing?-dsc00308.jpg   What Have They Been Doing?-dsc00303.jpg   What Have They Been Doing?-dsc00306.jpg  
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I think that might be a Centura carby... and as such it should be the same height as the original Solex. Or it may be a Renault 16TS carby... again, the same height as the Solex.

    Are you sure the plastic air cleaner trunk is rubbing on the bonnet?

    If it is, then it must be some other carby and it's sitting on a adaptor or something.

    Can you see a code on it?

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    It is definitely a Weber, it is marked so on the top of it. The only other markings I can see on it are on either sides of the mount. One side has 32DIR49A on it and the other 9500 6F. I'm not sure if there are any others that may help identify it.

    As for it rubbing on the bonnet, here is a photo of the underside of the bonnet. Please excuse the mess, I haven't cleaned that bit yet.

    Matt
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Have They Been Doing?-dsc00310.jpg  
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    nJm
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    It doesn't look that unusual under the bonnet. The biggest differences I can see between my (almost completely original/stock) 1983 GR and yours is the different throttle cable arrangement for your carb, and the fact that you're missing all the anti-polution crap.

    All 505's have an electric fan between the bumper/fan grill and the radiator. It switches on with the A/C.

    I'll pop out to the car and take a photo of my engine bay if you like.
    Nick
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    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlb
    It is definitely a Weber, it is marked so on the top of it. The only other markings I can see on it are on either sides of the mount. One side has 32DIR49A on it and the other 9500 6F. I'm not sure if there are any others that may help identify it.

    As for it rubbing on the bonnet, here is a photo of the underside of the bonnet. Please excuse the mess, I haven't cleaned that bit yet.

    Matt
    i'd be pretty certain that the 32DIR marking is what the carbie is i.e. it would be a webber 32DIR and probably off something such as a renault 16 as Ray stated
    Last edited by orestes; 6th January 2005 at 07:21 PM.

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    nJm
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    Here we go. Only things on there that aren't completely standard are I've fitted the windscreen washer tank out of a 505 GTi (has a regular pump that is easy to replace), and it has a 504 Solex carby on it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What Have They Been Doing?-img_0002.jpg   What Have They Been Doing?-img_0003.jpg  
    Nick
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    As I recall, the 16TS, the 2-litre Centura and the Falcon have that shape on the top of their Webers. Cortinas are almost squared off, as are Capris.

    Is there anything between the manifold casting and the carby?

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    mlb
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    i'd be pretty certain that the 32DIR marking is what the carbie is i.e. it would be a webber 32DIR and probably off something such as a renault 16 as Ray stated
    Thanks,

    That's what I reckon it is. I have been looking for information on the net to identify them and could only find reference to DGV's and DCOE's. But now I know there is a 32DIR, the markings make sense.

    I read elsewhere that the jets on the 32DIR's as fitted on Renault 16's are only good up to 1500cc and not too flash on a 2 litre. I tuned the car today and the mixture screw is set slightly further out than that specified by Weber as ideal, indicating that the jets may be too small. Does anyone know whether larger jets can be sourced?

    njm,

    Thanks for the pics. They'll give me an idea of how things should look. Especially the way such things as the spark plug cables are run. Things just look a bit messy on mine at the moment.

    Matt
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    mlb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Is there anything between the manifold casting and the carby?
    Not that I can see Ray. Nothing that indicates an adaptor plate. Unless they adapted the manifold to suit or found a suitable manifold that could be bolted straight to the head.
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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default What Have They Been Doing

    Quote Originally Posted by mlb
    It is definitely a Weber, it is marked so on the top of it. The only other markings I can see on it are on either sides of the mount. One side has 32DIR49A on it and the other 9500 6F. I'm not sure if there are any others that may help identify it.

    As for it rubbing on the bonnet, here is a photo of the underside of the bonnet. Please excuse the mess, I haven't cleaned that bit yet.

    Matt
    I have before me a 32 DIR 21 Weber. I believe it is from a Renault 12.
    It has a water heated base [spacer]. This adds 10mm to the height of the carb compared with the Escort/Cortina Weber and the original Solex ?
    This model Weber is the one suggested by a UK specialist for the 504.
    My carb hasn't got the extra spouts on the top cover like yours, pre emmissions model? The throat sizes are also stamped at the rear. 23 & 24.

    I'm off now to watch the "Barcelona Dakar' on SBS. GO Andy Caldecott !

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    mlb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    I have before me a 32 DIR 21 Weber. I believe it is from a Renault 12.
    It has a water heated base [spacer]. This adds 10mm to the height of the carb compared with the Escort/Cortina Weber and the original Solex ?

    The throat sizes are also stamped at the rear. 23 & 24.
    You are right. Had another look, and there is definitely a water heated base below the carby, as you can see from the picture. (Not too good, taken earlier in the day for another purpose but you can see what I mean. Lookslike I've got another job for tomorrow, fix the alignment on the throttle cable, a tad out )

    Not sure about the throat sizes, will have to wait until daylight so I can have another look.

    As for fitting to the manifold, it looks like there are bolts passing through the carby and mount with a nut on the other side. I'm not sure if that is standard, but on other cars I've worked on there have been threaded holes in the manifold for bolt the carby to. Looks like another custom job.

    The search for truth continues.....
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i have come into this late today but i have been busy

    that's a renault carb

    falcon is totally different and they are an ADM or something similar anyway

    the electrics look typical so just a tidy up would be fine
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    mlb
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    that's a renault carb
    Any idea where I can get the specs/manual for this carb. I think I'll have to put a kit through it sometime soon, starting to get weeps around the joints and other signs of wear.

    Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlb
    Any idea where I can get the specs/manual for this carb. I think I'll have to put a kit through it sometime soon, starting to get weeps around the joints and other signs of wear.

    Matt
    talk to the renualt guys in there forum, im sure someone with a 12 or 16 might be able to help you as with regards to information on the carb

    i found this parts list, plus an exploded diagram if that helps at all

    http://www.piercemanifolds.com/32DIR.pdf
    http://www.piercemanifolds.com/32DIRpl.pdf

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    That bolt type fitment is standard...

    Well, it's not really bolts. What you have is a nut under the flange of the manifold, while the stud is double ended, with a step that sits in a recess in the face of the flange.

    In the standard arrangement you have water passing through the manifold's water jacket around the base of the carby etc. If that carby is a type that has the heated plate under the carby, then you might have to look at taking that away.

    If it is indeed a Renault 12 carby, you would be strangling it fairly well.

    But it's not... I have a 32DIR49 right here, and it's from a Renault 16TS. It uses a heating plate approximately 14mm thick. The overall height of this carby (including heating plate) is 10mm more than the standard 505 Solex.

    Dimensions that seem pertinent are:

    Original 505 Solex... from flange face to horizontal step around the chokes (onto which the plastic trunk fits) = 89mm

    Weber from Renault 16TS... flange face to horizontal step etc, including heating plate = 99mm

    Weber 34ADS (I think this one is from a Centura, but it might be Falcon)... flange face to horizontal step etc, including 28mm thick heating plate = 101mm

    My suggestion is that you take out the heating plate and if you want the benefit of manifold heating direct your pipes back to where they came from.

    But I'm surprised that 10mm would make the thing rub on the bonnet. Is there some reason the engine might be sitting a tad high?

  25. #25
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    FWIW, my R12 has a 32DIR21 and I have a couple of spares with the same designation. The R16 uses bigger venturis (they are removeable) but looks the same.

    I bought a kit from Caravelle which has a blow-up of the carb with it.
    Stuey


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