1800cc 504 motors
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Icon5 1800cc 504 motors

    I'm after an 1800 cc 504 motor with the relevant bits (Crankshaft & conrods) in decent shape to give a 404 a little extra torque.

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    Any advise

  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Be prepared to be frustrated...

    I was thinking about this the other week... the best idea might be to buy pistons and get a 2-litre crank ground down in the rear main bearing to suit.

  3. #3
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    Default 1800?

    How about a 1618 cc KF2 injection engine? Or are those even rarer than 1796 cc?

    In any case, the Injected 404 engine is sweet and very torquey.

    -Mike

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    Member mbyok's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if I am just repeating an old mechanic's tale but I was always told to steer clear of the 1800. The explanation I was given was that the 1800 was an interim motor for the 504 based on the 404 unit but with larger bore sleeves fitted. This resulted in there being less meat in the block around the sleeves and potential problems with cooling and head gasket sealing. Hence the advice I was given to stick with 1600 or go to 2 litre.

    Any comments?

    Maurice

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbyok
    I'm not sure if I am just repeating an old mechanic's tale but I was always told to steer clear of the 1800. The explanation I was given was that the 1800 was an interim motor for the 504 based on the 404 unit but with larger bore sleeves fitted. This resulted in there being less meat in the block around the sleeves and potential problems with cooling and head gasket sealing. Hence the advice I was given to stick with 1600 or go to 2 litre.

    Any comments?

    Maurice

    that may be true but an 1800 will rev so much more sweetly than a 2L
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  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 1800cc 504 motors

    Quote Originally Posted by mbyok
    I'm not sure if I am just repeating an old mechanic's tale but I was always told to steer clear of the 1800. The explanation I was given was that the 1800 was an interim motor for the 504 based on the 404 unit but with larger bore sleeves fitted. This resulted in there being less meat in the block around the sleeves and potential problems with cooling and head gasket sealing. Hence the advice I was given to stick with 1600 or go to 2 litre.

    Any comments?

    Maurice
    Maurice,
    Unless I'm mistaken the 1800cc capacity was achieved by a longer stroke,the bore size remained the same.

    The 404's with the XM7 1800 engine had more usefull torque so I'd imagine the early 504 with 1800 would be the same.

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Yes, it was a longer stroke, but it still revved like there was no tomorrow...

    To answer a few... Mike Tippett... you are kidding? I've only ever seen two of those engines in my life! You've owned at least that many!

    Originally Posted by mbyok
    I'm not sure if I am just repeating an old mechanic's tale but I was always told to steer clear of the 1800. The explanation I was given was that the 1800 was an interim motor for the 504 based on the 404 unit but with larger bore sleeves fitted. This resulted in there being less meat in the block around the sleeves and potential problems with cooling and head gasket sealing. Hence the advice I was given to stick with 1600 or go to 2 litre.

    Any comments?
    Two so far and they contradict each other!

    As I stated initially, it was the longer stroke that made the capacity in these. These closed-top blocks were very rugged things, IMNSHO. Far fewer gasket problems than the open-top XN blocks that followed.

    So you are 'just repeating an old mechanic's tale'... but from a mechanic who unfortunately didn't know the full story.

    Steve Dixon used to do an 1800 conversion boring the sleeves... he used some VW piston or other.

    You might note that in my initial post I mentioned 'new pistons'... this is because the additional stroke means that the piston crown height has to be lowered by half the dimension of the extra stroke.

  8. #8
    Member mbyok's Avatar
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    Thanks for that. You can't trust 90% of the the bastards.

    I wonder how many utter falsehoods have become part of the folklore through the oft repeated "a mechanic mate of mine told me that..." In addition, so much of the material that you read must be taken with a grain of salt.

    I am grateful that there is a place to "share the knowledge".

    Maurice

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 1800 cc 504 motors.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbyok
    Thanks for that. You can't trust 90% of the the bastards.

    I wonder how many utter falsehoods have become part of the folklore through the oft repeated "a mechanic mate of mine told me that..." In addition, so much of the material that you read must be taken with a grain of salt.

    I am grateful that there is a place to "share the knowledge".

    Maurice
    Here are some details on iron block Peugeot engines.
    404. Bore 84mm. Stroke.73mm. [1600cc engine]
    504. Bore 84mm. Stroke 81mm. [1800cc engine]
    504. Bore 88mm. Stroke 81mm. [2 litre open block engine]

    404 / 504 with XM7 engine, rare, usually ex Africa.
    Bore 84mm. Stroke 81mm. [1800cc open block engine]
    Last edited by Wildebeest; 3rd January 2005 at 10:15 AM. Reason: add spec.

  10. #10
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    Yeah Mike the 404 KF2 is very very desirable, but unfortunately as rare as Rocking horse manure.

    The 1800 versus 2litre has been accuaratley commented on by Ray. I may be able to purloin a decent 1800...but wanted to test the water in case my lead fails.

    Thanks again

    John

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 1800cc 504 motors etc.

    I've always considered that the good points of the early Peugeot engines were their good low to mid range performance or torque. Allowing the car to proceed without the use of high revs and 5 or 6 speed gearboxes.
    Some of the "revolutions per minute" figures I hear mentioned by owners are more like the "revolutions per year" my Peugeots ever achieved!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bahay
    I'm after an 1800 cc 504 motor with the relevant bits (Crankshaft & conrods) in decent shape to give a 404 a little extra torque.

    Any advise
    The 1800 blocks and liners are identical to the 1600.
    One reason why they revved is that for some reason they had very strong valve springs, enough to give cam and rocker problems in a few engines.
    I will be getting a piston liner set shortly which I may sell and may also have an complete engine for sale.
    Graham

  13. #13
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    Thanks Graham,
    I'll keep that in mind and give you a yell if th first lead falls through.

    Cheers

    John

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest

    404 / 504 with XM7 engine, rare, usually ex Africa.
    Bore 84mm. Stroke 81mm. [1800cc open block engine]
    Don't forget the XC7 which is the 1618cc engine but with an open top block. Basically all X series blocks cast in France from about 1971 (possibly mid-1970) onwards had open top blocks, although blocks cast in Argentina seem to have been still the closed top type for a few years after that, until they got the 1971cc engine in 1975 or 1976.

    The early Argentinian 504 had 404 suspension, hubs, brakes and wheels with the Argentinian made C3A gearbox, Argentinan hypoid diff and an XC5A 1657cc closed top block fitted with a head with two ports and a dual throat carby. They were slightly heavier than a 404, but went quite well due to the XC5A engine.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
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    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    C3A gearbox?

    Dave, the rear main bearing, which is different in the 1800 to the 2-litre, is there any information about what ones used the smaller and larger bearings among those you mention?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    C3A gearbox?

    Dave, the rear main bearing, which is different in the 1800 to the 2-litre, is there any information about what ones used the smaller and larger bearings among those you mention?
    I don't know, but I presume the block is identical to the normal closed top 1600 block, but possibly bored out by 1mm to accommodate the 85mm sleeves, unless the outside diameter is the same as the 84mm sleeves (very possible). The XC5A designation is due to the bigger bore and the different head and manifold.

    As for the C3A gearbox, I not sure what the "A" designation signifies.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean
    I don't know, but I presume the block is identical to the normal closed top 1600 block, but possibly bored out by 1mm to accommodate the 85mm sleeves, unless the outside diameter is the same as the 84mm sleeves (very possible). The XC5A designation is due to the bigger bore and the different head and manifold.

    As for the C3A gearbox, I not sure what the "A" designation signifies.

    Dave
    Maybe it has got better ratios, taller first perhaps? Could be excellent as an upgrade in a 404 or 403.
    Graham

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