Some 405 Mi16 Q's
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Default Some 405 Mi16 Q's

    As some of you know. I was searching for a new(er) car. I found one. A 405 Mi16 in reasonable nick for under $5K.

    I do have some issues with it though. Most have been sorted or I am on top of it. But there are some things I just can't make sense of.

    Looking through the workshop manual, I am assuming that the engine has hydrolic valve clearance? Are they shim under bucket, over bucket? I am not sure. This is more for my knowledge of these unfamiliar engines and cars.

    Also, it seems everyone who has a 405 has speedo cable issues. Surely by now someone has come up with a solution, Peugeot or not?

    Also wanted to know of a nice and relatively easy way to refresh the dash up. Getting rid of some of those rattles, freshening it up alittle.

    I had a tremendous amount of trouble today with the seat height adjustment lever on the right side of the drivers seat. Spent the entire day with my head against the roof lining.

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    I eventually figured it out. There was a locking tab on the opposite side that freed the chair to move back down a few inches. I can drive safely now.

    pips
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    1990 405 Mi16

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    Hi

    Peugeot has come up with a solution, But its no help for 405 owners.

    They use an electronic sensor now for the speedo instead of a cable.

    They introduced this back in 1996 when the 406 was launched.

    Yes the engine has hydraulic tappets for the valves, Ive no idea about the shims on this engine.
    Last edited by LeePower; 30th December 2004 at 11:23 PM.
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    Cool, thanks for the info. You're a wealth of information.

    pips
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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    There's no shims, but it's a shim under bucket design type design. The hydraulic lifter snaps into the bucket. Like these below:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Some 405 Mi16 Q's-twofollowers.jpe  

    '92 205 Mi16
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    Ah ok. thanks. Your pic is defunct, but I get it. There is no pic or diagram in the w/s manual and I wasn't really interested in opened the rocker cover just to have a poke.

    I have tightened the power stering belt but it still slips, I think its worn and abit glazed. Will I have to go to a Pug dealer to get a new one or will somewhere like Supercheap or Repco have these or equivilents?

    pips

    EDIT: Your pic works now. must have been something I did.
    Last edited by pips; 31st December 2004 at 02:08 PM.
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Any place that has a wide range of belts will one.

    '92 205 Mi16
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    I have taken the belt right off after I played with it. The condition is fine. I refitted it (making note of the direction - althought it probably wouldn't matter for this area of the car).

    I wedged my fat hand into that gap and used my torque wrench in that metal tab with the appropriate 1/2 inch socket square hole. pushed against it till the wrench clicked, tightened the nut with my ratchet and now, at a stand still, from lock to lock, there is no belt squeal. I'll still change the belt for piece of mind. Might even do the timing belt (due in 20,000kms according to the two previous owners log books). Or should I just wait till the 20,000kays? Its probably worth doing it now, but I have heard belts going early, which is contradicting what I was told at a night at IAME once when there was a meeting on some belt manufactuers. They all said that timing belts were given half lives and can normally go for twice the recommendation, but its not worth it. This contradicts some stories I have heard of Pug belts letting go.

    Mental note: Must fix fuel gauge!!! and Machine front discs. Then the car is mechanically A1.

    pips
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

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    Pips, I'd leave the timing belt if you know that it's been done by a reputable workshop 60,000km ago. That is, one that'd know the vagaries of tensioning them on this motor.

    Stuey


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    If it was me I would change the timimg belt now, Even if it still has 20K to go.

    You have just spent a lot of money out on a car for yourself & it would be silly to skimp on a timing belt change.

    If the timimg belt snaps its bent valves time, Theres 16 valves you could bend! & it will ruin your enjoyment of the car as well as empty your wallet to fix it!
    2003 Pug 206 GLX TU3JP

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    I agree. The timing belt has a recommended life expectancy of 4 years or 80K klms so it's double whammy time as far as recommended changes are concerned.
    It's not what I'd call a difficult job for anyone with a bit of mechanical nouse that you obviously have.
    To do it properly, I's suggest going to see Mr Wong and getting a "Dayco" Timing belt (Repeat Dayco) There's reasons for that I won't go into here a water pump if you want to do it 100% right, a piece of of keysteel from a local car parts place (5/16" square by 1 foot long approx) sorry for imperial sizes but I understand most key steel is still Imperial not metric otherwise about 8mm is the size, bent about 20 - 30mm from the end at right angles, a 7mm Allen key or rod to act as a lower locking pin and get two stepped pins made up out of alloy or plastic to lock the cam sprockets.
    Access to an engine crane makes the job a breeze. Should take about 3 hours for the first one and 1 1/2 - 2 hours from then on.
    I can send you the instructions from both the Citroen/Pug service manual along with tips frm myself and a couple of other experienced DIYers from overseas.
    If you encounter anything you're not sure of, just drop Peter T or myself a line & we should be able to sort it. Had a call from the UK a couple of days ago from a guy unsure of the job and it was under control in notime. If the instructions are followed to the letter, no problems.
    One member here had a car done by a "professional" that lasted under 20K klms before it snapped, so paying big dollars isn't a guarantee it will be done properly.

    Alan S
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    The mechanic that is looking after my mi16 is recommending that i replace the belt after only 10k, as it was changed (on the cheap) by the previous owner. This will hopefully be the last stage in fixing this guys mistakes - already had to replace radiator, accelerator cable, entire heating unit and numerous other dodgy aftermarket parts.

    After going through the costs associated with a snapped timing belt i think it would be stupid to risk it.

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    What does he describe as "on the cheap"?
    Is he going on the way it was done or the fact it may not have been done at all?
    Short of that and him being into psychics, I can't understand how anyone could accurately come to that conclusion; first time I've ever heard it.

    Alan S
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    I actually confronted the person who carried out the repairs, as some things he said he had done he clearly hadn't. It was a pretty dodgy operation, and this guys speciality was american built cars.( He was a big fan of the taurus... enough said?) He described to me how much he disliked anything european.

    The previous owner had gone there because it was much cheaper than anywhere he could find that worked on european cars. To further save costs he used cheap aftermarket parts.

    I can see what you're saying though - i'm sure my mechanic is (to a degree) just trying to manipulate my impressionable mind and convince me to spend lots of money with him. Although, the work he has done on my dads 406 coupe and sisters 205 has been excellent.

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    The aftermarket parts that are available are at times the same as, as good as and sometimes better than originals. They can also be worse too.
    For starters, I'd be checking the brand of belt they used (refer the above posting on that topic) and if that brand hasn't been used and if one that is used in particular on Jap cars has been used (think of something associated with fences) don't hesitate getting it replaced. If the pump is even suspected of leaking; same applies.
    If the mechanic is a well known and reputable operator just be guided by him; after all, he's there & I'm here. It was just a curious diagnosis that had me intrigued.

    Alan S
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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Don't forget to change the water pump while you're in there. Contact Auto France for the Dayco belt and pump. He ships for $8. It will cost you that much in tolls.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    So guys; do you all recommend a lesser timing belt change interval than 4 years/80,000km?

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    So guys; do you all recommend a lesser timing belt change interval than 4 years/80,000km?

    Stuey

    if the car is doing mainly stop start traffic type driving then change them more often

    if the car is doing more h'way and open road running the 80k/4yrs should be ok

    i know the GTi-6 type engines will eat a timing belt if they are sitting around in traffic more than normal driving as the pressure on the timing belt in those engines at idle or near idle is pretty high
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    I will be doing the job myself. The only difficult part for me is to get in that tight space. I have changed many timing chains on bikes which looks more difficult then slipping a belt off and slipping a new one on. I say that as I laugh, "don't curse yourself again..."

    Why is it recommended to change the water pump? I looked at the service history and it has already been done (about 40,000kms ago). Do they have a high failure rate with pugs?

    I don't have access to an engine crane, so that might make things harder.

    I'll look into the Dayco belts.

    I suppose it makes sense to replace the crank seal when you are down there replacing the belt. But if its not leaking, should I still bother?

    What state is AutoFrance in? I look up the contact details.

    Also, another question... The headlight level dial... what is the go with that? I turn it, nothing happens, when I let it go, it springs back to 0 (Zero). Is this broken? Also, my oil temp dial works, then doesn't. It goes on and off randomly. If I tap the dash, it works. More humurously (if that's a real word), when I turn the aircon on, then off. If I turn the aircon on, it still stays inoperable. When I turn it off, its fine. So, I am not sure if its a short, or just a bad connection. Tapping the dash tells me its a bad connection, dry solder joint or something. But it also constantly does it with the aircon. Note: It does this randomly, getting it to work is done by either turning the air on or off, or tapping the dash.

    pips
    Last edited by pips; 1st January 2005 at 02:39 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    So guys; do you all recommend a lesser timing belt change interval than 4 years/80,000km?

    Stuey
    Stuey, remember the BX16v I bought in Sydney Nov 03..... belt was changed after the previous belt had snapped, so first belt changed almost to the last kilometre at 80k, this belt went at 157k but six years after fittment, probably streching things timewise and very expensive for previous owner.

    Well, I've just picked the car up after it spending a good while with my trusted repairer here in Bris. The car went in for a minor service, front rotors and pads, and to get the aircon regassed. I received a phone call a couple of days after dropping off the beast to inform me that whilst being reversed out of the aircon subcontracter's workshop, the car had snapped it's cam belt. The car has now done close to 180k and the belt was changed in Oct '02. All the advise I had had, suggested I should not worry about changing the belt - it had only done some 10k (at that time) and was just two years old. I don't yet have the final invoice but I know 5 valves were replaced, needless to say not happy

    If there is a lesson to be learned, I would recommend a belt change every time the car changes hands and/or at the recommended service intervals. Far less costly than the alternative.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    On that note... I'm changing the belt.

    Alan_S
    Could you please send me those Pug manuals. Is it snail mail or do you have an electronic version?

    I'll pm you my details once you let me know.

    Thanks,
    pips
    Last edited by pips; 1st January 2005 at 02:46 PM.
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

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    1990 405 Mi16

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    Quote Originally Posted by pips
    I will be doing the job myself. The only difficult part for me is to get in that tight space. I have changed many timing chains on bikes which looks more difficult then slipping a belt off and slipping a new one on. I say that as I laugh, "don't curse yourself again..."

    Why is it recommended to change the water pump? I looked at the service history and it has already been done (about 40,000kms ago). Do they have a high failure rate with pugs?

    I don't have access to an engine crane, so that might make things harder.

    I'll look into the Dayco belts.

    I suppose it makes sense to replace the crank seal when you are down there replacing the belt. But if its not leaking, should I still bother?

    What state is AutoFrance in? I look up the contact details.

    Also, another question... The headlight level dial... what is the go with that? I turn it, nothing happens, when I let it go, it springs back to 0 (Zero). Is this broken? Also, my oil temp dial works, then doesn't. It goes on and off randomly. If I tap the dash, it works. More humurously (if that's a real word), when I turn the aircon on, then off. If I turn the aircon on, it still stays inoperable. When I turn it off, its fine. So, I am not sure if its a short, or just a bad connection. Tapping the dash tells me its a bad connection, dry solder joint or something. But it also constantly does it with the aircon. Note: It does this randomly, getting it to work is done by either turning the air on or off, or tapping the dash.

    pips
    water pumps will and do last longer than 40k

    when you do the job check the water pump out extremely well and make sure there are no leaks

    if all is fine then leave it be till the next belt change

    i still had the original water pump in my Mi-16 when i sold it at 199k but it was going to be changed out at the next belt change if i had kept it

    i still have the original pump in the GTi-6 and it has been through a belt change but it will be looked at for the next one

    i'd change the belt and while there check everything out but by the sounds of it you should be safe regarding the water pump

    my thinking is even if the water pump starts to leak at 3yrs or 60k down the track you haven't lost anything but the main thing makeing sure the pump spins very well as a dead bearing in the water pump will kill the timing belt

    this is more important than if the pump is leaking
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood
    Stuey, remember the BX16v I bought in Sydney Nov 03..... belt was changed after the previous belt had snapped, so first belt changed almost to the last kilometre at 80k, this belt went at 157k but six years after fittment, probably streching things timewise and very expensive for previous owner.
    Yeah I was just interested, because if I had an invoice from someone like Mark Dyson over here in Perth where the change had been done well within the last 4yrs/80, I'd be pretty comfortable leaving the belt until it was convenient to me to change. But I see your point.

    I bought mine at 148,000km and it'd had its belt changed by Mark at 50 and 100,000km, however, it was over four years since it had clicked over that 100,000. This was why I put it in for a belt change immediately rather than doing it myself - I simply didn't have the time and couldn't risk leaving it. However, the guy is highly regarded in Perth and a number of Froggers go there. Plus he uses Dayco belts (even on Ferraris).

    I'll do the next one myself before the time's up, as I won't do the k's.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    The headlamp level height adjustment dial on the series one 405s is connected to the headlamps with a cable linkage, It sounds like something has seized in the headlamp assembly.

    The odd electrical problems you point too sound normal for an older Peugeot! lol

    Im not sure about the earlier 405s, But on the series 2 405s there is a nasty plug in earth point for the dash board above & to the right of the glovebox, Its a right pain to get to!

    The best thing to do with ANY plug on earth on a Peugeot / Citroen is to cut it off & crimp + solder some ring terminals on & use a serrated washer when you reattach it to the body shell.

    One of the first things to do after getting a Pug or a Cit is to go around the car & clean + check all the earthing points, Helps get rid of odd electrical problems & you might find your headlamps brighter too, lol

    Peugeot battery terminals are not the best design in the world either, They stretch & come lose as they get older, Cut them off & solder some proper battery clamp terminals on if you have problems there.

    While the timing belts off, Check the water pump bearing is ok, Give it a spin & check that the pump isn't leaking, Also check the jockey wheels & bearings for play & damage too.
    2003 Pug 206 GLX TU3JP

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    Damn, my right hand headlight globe went south on my way home after dropping off my little niece. I think it was just a normal failure as the globe went really really bright then turned off.

    Yeah, earth points. I will be looking at a few of them. I checked out the fuel sender unit, and its definately the culprit. Checked the fuses, did a continuity test on the wiring from the unit to the fuses. It was all good. So it is either the gauge or the sender. But more then likely the sender unit.

    Shame the headlight adjustment dial is stuffed. I probably won't fix it. Its not like I would use it that often. It can go right down the bottom of the list.

    Also, I have this feeling that the timing belt is rubbing against something. Probably the cover.

    What did you mean by "Jocky wheels" you mean the idler pulley?

    Thanks for the advice.

    Pips
    Ever wonder why Mad Scientist talk to themselves? They know others just wouldn't understand.

    The software said "Windows 98 or better". So I installed Linux.

    1990 405 Mi16

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    Steve, the timing belt cover commonly goes a bit out of shape and does occasionally rub. Mine does it too.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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