IMPROVED BREATHING FOR CARBY/AUTO 505 WAGON?
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Nov 2001
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    IMPROVED BREATHING FOR CARBY/AUTO 505 WAGON?

    Greetings!
    After some months, many hours and numerous thoughts about a 505 BBQ, my 85 wagon now starts and drives almost reasonably. With Phase 2 come the 'improvements', principally a little more useable grunt.
    Have had success with other carby-cars in the past with RAMFLO-type 'sports'airfilters - unfortunately cannot source one for the Solex 35TMIMA carb.
    Suggestions, please, as to known benefits/drawbacks and current alternatives to the RAMFLO-type.

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  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I think the Ram-Flo would have little advantage, but you can get a variety of elements for the original anyway.

    Better to look at the carby, and my estimation is that the 2" SU off a Rover 2000 would transplant extremely well, give much the same power, a little better fuel consumption and a whole heap less trouble.

  3. #3
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I've just helped a friend put a Holley carb (Weber DFV copy) on his 504 automatic. We adapted it to the standard oil bath aircleaner. The performance improvement is amazing. I can't believe how well it goes now (even better than some manual 504s).

    Ramflow aicleaners only flow well when used with "open" cell foam, which unfortunately doesn't clean the air very well. If you use decent filter material, then the Ramflow tends to be too small for the engine. They do sound awesome though! I've had a few Ramflows on various Peugeots I've had, but I don't think you can go past the stock oilbath setup fitted to early Australian 504s and late 404s, the only trouble with it is that you have to remove it to access the spark plugs. The barrel shaped aircleaner with the foam element fitted to most 505s (and many 504s) seams to be a pretty restrictive design and I don't like it.

    Like Ray says the big S.U. should wrok well with excellent economy, howver it does require a bit of fabrication. If you fit a Weber DFV or DGV (or the Holley or Bressel copy) all you need to do is file out the manifold a little (so that it matches the Weber throats) and adapt the aircleaner. You can buy some pretty reasonable K&N filters to fit these carbs.

    Some people have had bad experiences with the Webers, but this is probably due to them not jetting the carb properly or they have neglected to file the manifold out to match the carb. My experience with the Webers has been excellent. My father and I have used them on 3 different 504s, a 404, a 203, and a number of Cortinas, and we can't speak highly enough of them. They don't seam to wear much in the throttle spindles either (unlike some Solexes). Alot of other people in the NSW pug club use webers also and the majority of them seam to have the same opinion as I.

    The biggest improvement I've fopund was ona 1618cc 404 engine. I put a 32/36 DGV Weber on it using an adapter plate and was blown away by the performance improvement, even though I had left the stock 1600GT Cortina jets in it (it did run a tad rich though). I had a Ramflow aircleaner on it at the time, which probably didn't help the richness problem, but it went great and sounded awesome.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  4. #4
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    If you go to my website http://www.geocities.com/davemcbean/...l?997061496590

    and look in the "general engine modification information" section you'll find three equations which you can use to calculate optimal airfilter size for Paper, Foam, or K&N elements. Using these equations you will find that most aftermarket filters are way too small. Even the standard K&N filters are a little small but the ones to fit Webers are apparently passable.

    On my 504 I fabricated my own 12" diameter (by 2" high) airfilter case to fit my Weber DGAV (although I used part of a smaller Warnford aftermarket base to match it to the carb).

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The Weber on my wagon when we got it caused us endless grief, but it was because of obscure blockages. How to overcome the problem was just beyond me.

    I believe Holleys would be easier.

  6. #6
    Member
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    What is the current thought on the oil bath air cleaners. Personally I hate them because of their bulk and mess. But compared to a K&N or perhaps a foam element of some sort, how do the oil baths rank (filtering ability and restriction).

    My '82 turbodiesel has an oil bath setup (same type that my '84 XN6 had stock), and I have thought of removing it in favor of a large K&N cone. But if there is no real performance advantage I'm not going to worry about it.

    -Joe

  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Joe,

    I too hate the bulk and mess of the oil bath oil filters, so I generally prefer a K&N or large diameter paper element.

    I have not seen any tests on oil bath aircleaners, but they are generally believed to have the best air cleaning ability and to flow very well (because the air doesn't have to pass through much of a restriction; the dirt is just forced into the oil due to inertia as the air turns a corner as it passes over the oil).

    Oil bath air filters are used on alot of earth moving equipment. A decade or two ago Caterpillar started to replace oil bath aircleaners with other types on their earth moving equipment. As a result some Australian users of Caterpillar equipment found that the engines were wearing out very quickly. They consulted with Caterpillar engineers and tried fitting the older style oil bath air filters. Once they put the oil baths back on, they got the same long life as with their older equipment.

    I think the main reason oil baths are not used on competition style cars is because of their weight and size. These same reasons (combined with cost) are probably also the reason why oil baths are not very common on normal everyday production cars either.

    Peugeot only ever seemed to fit oil baths to their fuel injected 404s, 504s and 505s, and to their carburetor 203s,403s,404s and 504s sold in dusty environments (up until 1976 in Australia). All other Peugeots have a cheaper foam or paper air filter. I think the fact that Peugeot reserved oil baths for their "high performance" models and models sold in dusty countries, speaks for itself.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  8. #8
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    In New Caledonia oil bath air cleaners were reckoned to give double the engine life.
    When I was there in 1989 I drove a 505 fitted with one, made from plastic!

    Graham Wallis

  9. #9
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Graham,

    That's interesting. I've noticed that 504s with oil baths seem to have much much longer engine life than the foam filtered ones. I know of atleast three people who have done in excess of 500,000km with the oil bath version, while others with foam filtered cars only lasted 250,000-300,000km or so.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    You're saying I really should bend that A/C pipe and move that drier so I can fit the proper air cleaner onto my fuel injection, aren't you?

    I always believed the oil bath air cleaners were better, and they surely are less expensive to maintain, even if they are messy.

  11. #11
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    8
    Thanks for your advice/opinions et al. Methinks that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" may be the way to go.
    What iritates me most about the 505 is that it isn't as good a car/drive/ownership deal as my long-running (& much-loved;we've had 6 over 20 years!!)Volvo 164s.
    The critical shortage of USEABLE power (that bloody auto is a pain....)takes all the fun out of the beast.
    As a people mover it is incredible; as a driving experience it is forgettable.

    Cheers, ADW.

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