404s ???
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Thread: 404s ???

  1. #1
    Nic
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    404s ???

    Is anyone interested in 404s anymore ??

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  2. #2
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    Hi,

    Everyone Loves 404's? Lots of people are still interested in them. My father just picked up one from SA on the weekend.

    Nick Watson
    <a href="http://www.pugaction.com" target="_blank">http://www.pugaction.com</a>

  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    A good disc brake 404 with a Kugelfischer 2-litre engine and BA7/5 is my dream car.

    Much better than 504s, 505s...

  4. #4
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    I drive my 1966 2 litre 404 every day, as Ray said better than the later models. They really hit on the right formula for sensible motoring, unfortunately the marketing department seems to have taken over since then.

    Regards, Graham Wallis

  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    They are as taut in the body as any Peugeot you can experience, though the 203 is pretty good. I used to reckon I could get mine to sit up and beg...

    Rust was their only downfall. Apart from a lack of power we learned about when 504s came out...

  6. #6
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    404s are one of the most fun cars ever. There's not too many cars that you can do 4 wheel drifts around every corner on a winding road, and feel completely in control the way a 404 feels (with 165 Michelin XZX tyres these drifts happen at pretty low speed). The live rear axle also allows you to do some choice wheel spins (the IRS 504s/505s take this fun away).

    The steering on 404s is superb, but it seems best with the standard 16.5 inch steering wheel. When I had a 13" on mine it was very twitchy at speeds above 100km/h, and I tended to over-correct when the tail came out (which caused a few scary moments).

    I have to say that high speed stability was greatly improved with 195/60 15" tyres (on 6" rims), but at the expense of some feel around the straight ahead position.

    Mine was a 1973/74 South African model and the suspension was rock hard (especially with the 60 profile tyres). I would like to try a 1969 or 70 model Australian spec car with 195/65 tyres and 2 litre engine. I think that would be great fun.

    Mine also had an early 504 wagon gearshift, which have a habit of jumping out of gear. In my opinion the standard 404 column shift is much better. If I converted one to floor shift, I'd go for the later style of floor shift in preference to the early wagon set-up.

    The interiors of 404s are very durable, but the exteriors get wrinkly very easily (too many panels with not enough curvature in them, which makes them easy to dent, even though they are made of thick steel.)

    On the subject of later RWD pugs: if you put 505 GTi springs and stiffer swaybars in a 504, and the faster steering rack (3.5 turns), it feels alot like a 404. I've left the slow rack in mine though, because with the 14" wheel it seems perfect for highway stability. I like the extra grip that the IRS gives, also.

    In Argentina, the early 504s (up to about 1975) were actually a 404 underneath. They had 404 front suspension and hypoid solid rear axle, and 1657cc engine (these Argentinian cars had a 85mm bore as opposed to the normal 84mm bore of the 1618cc). Live rear axle 504 sedans weigh about the same as 404s also (1070kg).

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'm at least extremely surprised at the weight you quote, David... what are the comparitive weights with the independent rear end?

    Hang on, wasn't the 404 19.5 cwt? I'm sure it was...

  8. #8
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ray,

    The weight of the late model 404 is approx 21cwt (1067kg). A basic live rear axle 504 sedan (i.e. 504L) is about 1070kg. A basic IRS 504 sedan is about 1160kg. A fully equipped 504 sedan with injection, sunroof, power windows, automatic trans, intrusion bars in the doors and air conditioning is over 1230kg. Of course diesel 504s are closer to 1300kg. The basic petrol 504 wagon is just over 1300kg.

    Most 504 sedan weight figures quote 1210-1220kg, which is typical for a Euro spec 504Ti with a sunroof.

    Some of the later USA spec petrol 504 sedans with big bumpers weighed as much as 1350kg (diesel sedans were around 1435kg), which together with the emissions controls was a very big drain on performance.

    Late model (1990s) Argentinian 504s had alot of extra features, but because they only had a live rear axle they were only around 1150kg.

    A base model 505 IRS 4 speed sedan is about 1215kg, but the most basic sold in Austrlia had a 5 speed, airconditioning and electric windows and were about 1240kg.

    By present standards the 504 weighs a fraction more than a Toyota Corolla and about the same as a Peugeot 307.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  9. #9
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    That kind of amazes me... where is the extra weight... I guess the crossmember weighs a bit, but not that much, the swinging arms a bit more, but there is no axle housing... then again, that's alloy.

    The other thing that amazes me is how cars just keep getting heavier, despite the plastic input.

  10. #10
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ray,

    The weight difference between the 504L (1070kg) and basic IRS 504 (1160kg) is not just the IRS, but also other things like interior instruments, console, insulation, etc. The 504 L is very stripped out.

    The IRS probably only accounts for 50 or 60kg of the extra 90kg. The IRS cross member and trailing arms are very heavy (I've recently been trying to move some around), when compared to the alloy live rear axle housing. Also the CV joint half shafts feel alot heavier than the live rear axle half shafts.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  11. #11
    Nic
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    Thanks people for the number of replies, I was beginning to think as a 404 owner I had BO or worse.

    I have had 203, 403s, 404s and 504s. I still have 4 disc brake (mosty 1970) 404s and a 78 504 auto into which I have just had to put sleeve seals.

    I have to agree for the sheer driving experience, it is hard to beat a 404 for lightness and responsiveness.

    Nic

  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    You can't drive them all at once... that's greed on a grand scale!

    Any have 2-litre engines? Five-speed boxes?

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