Pinging @ 4000rpm?? What the??
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Pinging @ 4000rpm?? What the??

    Hi all,

    Just a quick "I have no bleeping idea" question.

    I've noticed that when I rev my 505 STi over 4000 revs it starts to ping something chronic....

    No matter what petrol used (optimax, prem, opti + octane boost, lrp), no matter what conditions (up hill, downhill, flat) and no matter what gear (1st, 2nd and 3rd but not 4th as much), (Fuel tank full or emptyish).

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    Can differ between 4000 to 4500 when it starts to ping but always does......Up till then acceleration is bloody beautiful....

    Am I thinking??
    Dizzy problems??
    Fuel pick up?
    Fuel pump??
    Fuel distributor??

    Thanks for the help I know I'll get.
    wink
    Jono

    <small>[ 10 June 2003, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: crosspug ]</small>
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  2. #2
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    crosspug:


    I've noticed that when I rev my 505 STi over 4000 revs it starts to ping something chronic....

    Jono
    Sounds like it's starved for fuel when it needs it most. How airtight are these fuelies supposed to be? Are they sensitive to extra air being sucked in from somewhere where it shouldn't? Maybe check for air leaks around the intake manifold. Try running it richer and see if that makes a difference. 2_cents

  3. #3
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    If the timing is still set corectly at idle, it could have broken one of the advance springs in the dizzy. This would dramatically change the advance curve at higher revs (more advance, sooner)

    That would be the most simple (and cheapest to fix) cause.

    Try backing of the advance about 5-8 degrees and take it for a spin. It will probably be very flat down low, but if it fixes the pinking problem at 4000 rpm it might be worth getting the dizzy looked at.

    Regards,

  4. #4
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Another trick in finding broken dizzy centrifugal springs or jammed mechanism is to simply try turning the rotor back & forth; it should feel "springy" & if not, then for sure that's where the trouble lies. Some CXs also have a crazy idea (most of which have been discarded by now thank goodness) & that is a small pipe about 4mm dia that comes from under the intake manifold & is there supposedly in case the car badly floods so the excess can be drained out. By the time you gain access to it on a CX the petrol would have evaporated anyway, but there's a rubber plug on it that simply rots & falls off.
    Have had a couple of instances in the past where that has caused drama unnecessarily also.
    Don't know if a Pug has one but worth checking to see.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Thank you all,

    Not real keen on playing around to much with the dizzy as I have little idea of the thing. But I suppose I'll only find out one way.

    but will
    1)Try and find a leak, shouldn't be as I always check that everything is tight and hooked up each time the bonnet is up (way too often ).

    2) Will give advancing the timing a go, but as I've never done this before it could be fun.

    3) I'm going to hunt down the doublejointed, blind frenchman that put the dizzy where it is. (Under the damn intake manifold, What the?? eek! )

    I'm sure you'll be hearing from me again.... moon

    Jono
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    it should feel "springy" & if not, then for sure that's where the trouble lies.
    Arrh......... Stupid Question ALERT but.....

    What should it NOT feel like??

    I seem to remember it being stiff and quite immovable when I had the dizzy cap off last week.
    Is stiff bad or is easily moved bad?? (or both?)

    Jono

    that is a small pipe about 4mm dia
    Your telling me there could be ANOTHER pipe that goes somewhere or nowhere under there!!!! Almost cried when I saw my flatmates nice simple to work with 3.3L in his cortina..... No bl**dy pipes hanging off everywhere. cry

    <small>[ 10 June 2003, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: crosspug ]</small>
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  7. #7
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    crosspug:
    it should feel "springy" & if not, then for sure that's where the trouble lies.
    Arrh......... Stupid Question ALERT but.....

    What should it NOT feel like??

    I seem to remember it being stiff and quite immovable when I had the dizzy cap off last week.
    Is stiff bad or is easily moved bad?? (or both?)

    Jono
    Jono,

    It shouldn't feel stiff or should I say "rock hard" which if it does it is almost doubtless jammed.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Thanks Alan,

    Will double check today, but I think I've got that bad feeling....

    I take it this means that it cannot advance, if it is stuck. So when it is at high rev's timing stays the same as at idle (or thereabouts).

    Will have a look in the haynes manual now to see what I can understand.

    Jono whip
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Yep, basically that's the story.
    Not a big job unless it's extremely hard to get to but I've nexver found one yet I couldn't do in a half an hour.
    Shouldn't be expensive as in most cases it's usually a case of lack of lubrication that caused the problem so freeing up & greasing up is usually all that's required.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  10. #10
    nJm
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    Alan S:
    Yep, basically that's the story.
    Not a big job unless it's extremely hard to get to but I've nexver found one yet I couldn't do in a half an hour.
    Alan S
    Never worked on a 505 STi/GTi Alan? Some people think it is easier to access the distributor from under the car with these engines. It really was a cruel thing to do putting it under all that piping etc.

    That's one of the reasons I much prefer the older 2L pushrod engine - the dissy is up the top and easy to get to.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    crosspug:
    it should feel "springy" & if not, then for sure that's where the trouble lies.
    Arrh......... Stupid Question ALERT but.....

    What should it NOT feel like??

    I seem to remember it being stiff and quite immovable when I had the dizzy cap off last week.
    Is stiff bad or is easily moved bad?? (or both?)
    Do the STi engines have the Bosch distributor (used in electronic fuel injected Pugs) or one of the other ones?

    The Bosch ones have a centrifugal advance mechanism, but it isn't directly connected to the rotor. Instead, it is used to control a stator which works together with the electronic control module to then deliver a spark to the rotor.

    As a result of this setup, you can't test the advance mechanism by trying to rotate the rotor. Instead, below the rotor somwhere - I don't quite remember where, you should be able to see a four-pronged flat disc thingy. This is the stator and this is what you should try to rotate. As Alan said, if it's springy, the advance mechanism should be fine.

    Here's a previous thread that might be useful, where we were trying to figure out the cause of the pinging in my 505 GTi. I haven't been able to fix the problem properly as yet but I've got it under control.
    <a href="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000831" target="_blank">Apparently it's pinging</a>

    And in respect to the number of pipes coming off the dissy, all 505 dissys that I know of only have the one vacuum pipe attached, to provide manifold vacuum advance.

    Hope this helps.

    Richard
    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
    25 GTX '86
    - manual conversion

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Thanks to all,

    Well new findings.

    The vacum to the dissy works fine, still a bugger to get too, block side of the dissy.

    I suspected as much about the Bosch dissy once I tried to turn it again and read abit about it. Definete no go, will read up on this as I still don't have a full grasp.

    But I did find a formerly sealed and threaded hole on the flywheel/underside of the metal spacer between the top of intake manifold and the tubing from the air flow sensor.

    Checked another STi and it has a steel pipe leading to a black box bolted to the #1 intake.

    This then leads from it in another steel pipe over the back of the engine (very obvious as it sits about 5cm above the engine) to another pipe parrallel to the exhaust manifold??

    Any ideas what the hell it is??

    It was sealed with what looks like silicone (now cracked and fallen off) on my '83 (with no pipes or black box), but on my '84 all the stuff is there and the car doesn't ping......

    Emission gear??

    Anyway, will have a bigger play tomorrow.

    Thanks for the ideas

    Jono dead
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  13. #13
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    My 405 with Motronic (hence no distributor at all) also pings like the devil at high rpm, in warm weather. This car has done so - at sea level - since it was new. When I lived at 1050 m above sea level it never pinged, ever. Now at sea level, it pings very strongly in warm, dry weather at 4000+ rpm on regular fuel (which the car is supposed to use, C.R. is only 8.4:1). When there is moisture in the air, it pings a lot less (water injection!).

    I've been using mid-grade fuel in deference to the car's age (293,000+ km) and most recently a tank of premium with a view to attenuating its propensity to ping in the recent heat wave. It's only partly worked.

    So what do I make of this? Poor ECU cartographic design?

    In any case, I'm not worried - it's done it forever and suffered no ill effects so far.
    -Mike
    1966 404 Coupé KF2
    1989 405 DL
    2005 smart fortwo cdi cabrio

  14. #14
    XTC
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    M. Tippett:
    My 405 with Motronic
    Noticed the Canadian tag .. Whilst pugs are not in the US are they (were they) once available in Canada - or is your 405 a "special" import ?

    Cheers XTC206
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




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  15. #15
    nJm
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    Peugeots were sold in the US until around 1991 I believe. Hence the last car they got was the early 405. I remember reading a US review which stated the 405 had dangerous handling because it didn't have severe understeer. Lol roll_lau .
    peugeot_ peugeot_ whip

    EDIT: From what I gather one of the reasons they left the US market is due to the dreadful safety of their cars over there. In the late 80s the US required some form of active safety system in every car, and you had a choice: -airbags or automatic seatbelts (which were mounted on the window frame, so it was impossible to get into the car without putting on the seatbelt). Problem with this was when these strange seatbelts were fitted to the 505, if the car was hit on the side the seatbelt would fall off. Then if the door opened due to the crash people were being thrown clear of their cars. Naturally it significantly decreased the safety of the car.

    <small>[ 11 June 2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: nJm ]</small>
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    There have been some pretty strong suggestions that Peugeot are going to re-enter the US market in 2005 with the 407 as the first "cab off the rank".

    While we are on rumours, does anyone know anything about the story that Renault are considering buying Volvo?

    Cheers

    Rod
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    Peugeot 4008 2016Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, (deadish), - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 406 ST 1997, 307 XSE, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Peugeot in Canada?

    Well, they were here from about 1958 nearly constantly until 1991, when they left for good, so it seems.

    The 403 was very popular here (especially in Québec) and the 404 was not only more popular, it was even assembled in Québec at a CKD kit factory shared with Renault. My Dad bought one of these (a 1966 404 Injection), new!

    At one time, Peugeot sold every model of car they made here - in the 1966-68 time frame: 204, 204 C, 204 Break, last of the 403s, 404 saloon, 404 break, 404 Coupé and Cabriolet. This was before US/CDN safety and emissions control regulations started to deviate (for the better in most cases) from those of Europe. After that, the models brought over were quite limited - the 304 for 2 years, the 504, the 604, the 505 and finally the 405.

    Peugeot was here constantly from 1958 through 1983, when Chrysler Canada took over the responsibility for sales/service of 505s. That was an unmitigated disaster. The Chrysler salesmen were definitely wading in the shallow end of the gene pool and had no idea what a "Pugwat" was, never mind why someone might actually want to buy one. Sales plummeted and Peugeot left Canada for the first time in 1987.

    Then in 1988 a private distributor (Autolion) got the rights to import the 1989 Canadian version of the new 405 and they lasted through 1989 when they went bust. Mine is a 1989 Canadian model, built in July 1988!!!!

    1990 was a non-year for Peugeot in Canada. No Canadian model cars were sold. In 1991 Peugeot Canada was re-established and late 1989 and 1990-built cars were sold as 1991 models (the nerve!). Peugeot Canada had the honour of presiding over the final death of Peugeot in North America.

    Will they be back? I doubt it, but then again maybe I'm jaded becuase they've been gone for a dozen years.

    If they do come back, they'll have to bring a full range of cars over. Big Peugeots are duff, slow sellers, even in France. Relying on the 407 and 607 lard-mobile alone would be stupid. They need the 206, 307 including CC versions to have any chance. I'd like to see the 107 too.

    Peugeot is not a prestige carmaker like BMW or Benz, yet that's exactly what they pretended to be when they were selling cars here. And now you know why they're gone and nearly forgotten wink

    The passive safety issue was secondary to their failure, but it was an interesting footnote. As nJm noted, the US passive safety laws (heaven forbid, the USA is a "free" country, no possibility of a national seatbelt law there, though some states do have it...). Peugeot was cheap and historically was always reluctant to support progressive measures under Jacques Calvet. One example of this was their refusal to consider using airbags unless they were forced to by law. Another was their insistence that sub-1 litre displacement cars be exempted from emission controls (!!!) in the early 1990s. Luckily Calvet's European colleagues were not as Cro-Magnon and so that particular lobbying effort was lost

    Anyway I digress. So Peugeot retrofitted "electric mouse-up-the-pillar" seatbelts to the 505 door, a structure that was patently incapable of taking the strain! At least on the 405, the electric mouse-up-the-pillar belts were mounted on the door aperture and B-pillar, not the door itself... US/CDN 405s have heavily reinforced dashboards, so they can act as passive knee restraints in a collision (because the electric belts only worked "passively" for the shoulder portion; the lap portion had to be put on manually, hence it was not passive). This led to some fun, such as the heavy padded US/CDN model glovebox door breaking:
    1) its weak hinges
    2) its weak check straps
    3) its weak locking mechanism
    all of which were designed for the EU model which had a lightweight, nasty cheap hard plastic glovebox door. Another example of the schlock engineering that went into some of their products...

    Canadian model 405s all had normal seatbelts, and all US model MI16s had normal belts too. Only a certain percentage of a maker's cars were required by Uncle Sam to have passive restraints at the time.

    So there you have a brief summary.
    -Mike
    1966 404 Coupé KF2
    1989 405 DL
    2005 smart fortwo cdi cabrio

  18. #18
    Gus
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    Getting back to the 505...

    (Is this my old car btw? Didn't used to do that wink .)

    If the vacuum and centrifugal advances work then double-check the fuel lift pump in the tank works, cos if it doesn't it restricts fuel flow and can cause fuel starvation under load.
    (ie low fuel pressure - very serious in the K-Jetronic, leading to lean running & ping)

    First sign of this is a noisy main fuel pump (has to suck through the dead lift pump.) To be sure, take off the fuel filler cap, stick a short length of pipe in your ear, and have a listen to the innards of the tank. You should be able to hear the pump whirring away while the engine is on.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Is this my old car btw? Didn't used to do that
    Yep thats the one....... blush Promise I'm trying not to destroy it. wink

    Sounds like I'll be busy tomorrow, had a pre-pump pick up problem with my other 505 early last year, just cleaned etc and worked alot better. Will do the same thing and pray that it makes a difference.

    Been too busy with a certain Old Skool Push Bike today...... roll_lau roll_lau

    Jono

    PS Gus , did you notice the lack of the "THING" at the back of the engine?? Any idea??
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  20. #20
    Gus
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    Hi Jono,

    Sounds like I'll be busy tomorrow, had a pre-pump pick up problem with my other 505 early last year, just cleaned etc and worked alot better.
    Good to hear. Sometimes they just die, though.

    Peugeot sell a plastic pick-up replacement which doesn't utilise a pump. Not cheap at approx $100, but guaranteed not to die again. The lift pumps were to prevent vapour lock in "warm" climates (never fitted in Europe/US), but I had no trouble in Canberra summer & at Byron Bay over new years, so I imagine you'd be all good in Newie too.

    (aaarghh.. just talking about summer makes me feel cold!)

    PS Gus , did you notice the lack of the "THING" at the back of the engine?? Any idea??
    What 'thing' would that be? That car's had most of its whacky pollution control removed, don't think it was missing anything else though...

  21. #21
    Member LynCliff's Avatar
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    I had a similar problem with my 83STI and found a number of problems wich I eventually fixed and the old girl now returns around 9 ltr/100 on Shell Optimax. The first thing I found was the plastic device in the dizzy vacuam line was completly blocked so was it was removed . By the way the easiest way to work on the Dizzy is to remove the Alternator, this does not take too long and in the end is the Quickest way. The next problem I found was that the fabric coated fuel hose from the tank to fuel pump was porrus and let air into the line .This took a lot of tracking down as I remember, (flow testing), By the way no lift pump was ever fitted to this or my brothers 84 STI. You have to drop the tank out to change this hose and and possibly the spare wheel carrier. Make sure to fit a new fuel filter when you change this hose as I believe that bits of the inside of the pipe flake off and get into the pump and filter.

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