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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Default Still looking.

    Hey all,

    I am still looking for that right Pug 306XT or 405 Mi16.

    I have not seens any 306's in my range, but I have now seen a few 405's.

    The question I have regarding them is that I noticed each one has really bad response to the throttle. And after letting my foot off the throttle, the idle comes down slowly. hangs around 1800rpm. then slowly drops down to 1000rpm, then eventually 15 seconds after lifting off the throttle, the engine idles around its approximate 750rpm.

    I am starting to think they all do this. Two models I saw in particular did this, both with service history, 1 to 2 owners. But both in very different cosmetic condition.

    The one that ran much better (but still had the same throttle shenanigans) was in poorer condition.

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    I think I'll steer clear of both of the above mentioned. The last one I just saw was okay, but there were some things in the service history that kept popping back up. CV Boots, Clutch plate, right front suspension. These areas were always looked at or repaired.

    Ah well, still looking. I am bound to find one eventually.

    pips

  2. #2
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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    That still doesn't really answer my question in relation to the throttle issues I have experienced with just about every 405 mi16 I have test driven.

    btw, the first link you posted had already been refered to in another thread of mine when I first started looking for a Pug. That car sold about 2 months ago.

    And the 2nd link...haha, funny.

    pips
    Last edited by pips; 20th December 2004 at 05:01 PM.

  4. #4
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    The idle problems you describe seem common with just about every injected XU motor.

    However I've never driven a 405 or any injected XU motor with poor throttle response, in fact I would say they usually have great throttle response.

    Yes they will sometimes idle high when you come off the throttle, and generally idle poorly but I would be concerned about poor throttle response when you are actually 'driving' the car.
    Last edited by Louis; 20th December 2004 at 05:43 PM.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    its more like a delay. But enough to notice. Its a borderline misfire with no backfire.

    The car doesn't jerk or anything, but I expect to start accelerating when I put the boot down. Not wait between 800ms - 1 second before the engine responds.

    Its noticable.

    pips

  6. #6
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    That does sound strange and is not reflective of how they should drive.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Alrighty then.

    That proves my theory that I have been driving crapboxes or slightly out of tune examples.

  8. #8
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    Well, its all relative, if you're used to driving race cars an Mi16 might have an unresponsive throttle, but then if you're used to driving Daewoos then it would have a great throttle.

    Who knows, maybe they're fine and you're just picky?

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Ask Jason (Jason20) for a drive of his. He's got the most responive 1.9L Mi16 I've driven for a while. Have you been looking at 1.9L or 2.0L models?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    well...

    I drive a turbo diesel. Although not fast at all, when I put my foot on the throttle, it goes. Instantly.

    This feels more like a rubber band is connected between the throttle pedal and the throttle body. Its like nothing happens then BOOM!

    The idle is pretty smooth. This last one I saw wasn't as smooth. But it sounded more grumpy, like a modded engine. But there were no signs of that in the service history.

    I couldn't see any specific oil leaks, but there was what looked like oil and dirt around the rocker cover bolts, around the clutch area. But I couldn't say if this was an oil leak or just a dirty service. Surprisingly, I thought the engine bay would be detailed seeing as this was at a Peugeot/Volvo dealer.

    Ah well. Keep looking.

    Because I am unfamiliar with these cars, I can't say if they were 2Litre or 1.9

    All I know is that the one I saw today (not in good nick) was a 91 405 Mi16.

    The one I saw last week that was really nice but pricey was 93, same model.

    The dash was completely different in the older one. I thought they'd be the same. The 93 has a nicer dash with a digital temperature gauge, telling you how hot or cold it is outside.

    The dash in this 91 model was very basic. And the air direction dial didn't work. Changing it to feet, head or demist did nothing.

    pips
    Last edited by pips; 20th December 2004 at 06:43 PM.

  11. #11
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    You've discovered the difference between Phase (Series) 1 and 2 405s

    Phase 1's have an alloy 1.9 motor that normally makes 160hp but I believe in Australia yours made 148hp. They rev very nicely and are overall very responsive, taut and sharp.

    They have as you pointed out an older dashboard, but personally I actually prefer this interior.

    The Phase 2's have an iron-block 2.0 motor that makes less hp (150 or 155?) and does not rev quite so freely but is torquier.

    Overall some people feel they are slightly softer and less hard-edged than the Phase 1's.

    They have a newer dashboard which is better built.

    In my opinion if you are after a more involving drive the first phase is the one to go for, you are going to have to deal with a slightly rattly interior and due to their age possibly more problems.

    Going for a Phase 2 you are going to get a slightly softer car overall but in terms of interior, more modern and they aren't quite so likely to be needing work.

    If it was up to me, I'd go for a Phase 1 1.9 160hp (well, 148hp...) but for many people the second phase suits them better.

    Put it this way, most people I've come across who view the Mi16 as a 'performance vehicle' tend to prefer the first 160hp 1.9 model.
    Last edited by Louis; 20th December 2004 at 07:08 PM.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Thanks for that informative post.

    I don't look at any peugeot (or car for that matter) as performance orientated. As I spent most of my life on motorcycles..nothing can compare.

    But, as far as cars and bikes go these days, I am alittle more mature about my driving and riding, and I prefer the torque and cornering speed rather then straight line performance.

    I learnt this with bikes and went Ducati because it put a smile on my face again. Same goes when I test drive a decent Peugeot. I have no complaints regarding their handling. My question was more or less asked because that throttle issue was a bit of a downer for me and I noticed it with all the 405's I have driven so far.

    405's are my second choice of Peugeot though. I originally posted a thread on this forum about 2 or so weeks ago when I was looking for 306XT's. I have still not found one, and they would make the most ideal car. But 405's seem to be more common and more in my price range.

    Not too important for me, but I do take passangers on many occasions and I noticed how nice (even for me - 6ft4, big and blokey) the rear seats are, and their legroom. So 405's have won my heart. And taken first place, somewhat.

    I found another I will go see tomorrow and maybe purchase. Its cheap, local and looks good in the photos online...then again, so did the one I saw today.

    We shall see. I idealy want something before the next meet in Sydney. So I can bring the pug around and get the experts (read: members) to tell me what a shit box I bought. HAHHAHAAHA

    pips

  13. #13
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    Heh yes you will have no trouble with rear legroom in the 405, they are a wonderful touring car.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Also, I have heard previously in another thread that I should avoid BE1 gearboxes, and go for the BE2 or something.

    How will I be able to tell what box it has in it?

    Also, if items like suspension are alittle flaky and need repair in the future, would standard be best or is it advisable to go to K-MAC or Pedders to get upgraded stuff?

    Also, do the engines have issues I should look for? Any leaks in certain areas like crank seals, camshaft seals, etc?

    pips

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    Pips, the throttle response should be sharp - there's certainly no delay in a good one. The idle does tend to hold its revs a bit, but not to the extent you describe - that is, it doesn't come down really slowly, just that it's noticable. In fact I don't even notice mine anymore.

    The switch between series was in 93 so you would have tested a very early series 2. These addressed some of the issues in the quality of the interior of the series 1 so there are less rattles etc. and the body is apparently stiffer.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    Fellow Frogger! Industrie's Avatar
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    I've just had a quick look on the net & have found a couple of high mileage 306s in QLD for the 7-8,500 dollar mark. I'm sure there'd be more advertised in the paper.

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    I've just had a quick look on the net & have found a couple of high mileage 306s in QLD for the 7-8,500 dollar mark. I'm sure there'd be more advertised in the paper.

    Saw Brad's on there too. V Nice.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts parry's Avatar
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    Hey, I have 93 model in green, that I am willing to sell very cheap since I now own a RSC. 5k and its yours. Needs some attention to the central locking, body is in good nick, engine is sweet as. Never misses a beat and has never let me down.
    90 205 Gti Cherry Red(Track Car)
    2009 207gti
    1985 505gti (Shitbox Rally) Sold

    PBs:

    Oran Park: 1:27:9
    Wakefield: 1:05.6 (July 2015)
    Eastern Creek: 1:54 (8v) 1:48 (16V)
    Mt Huntley: 34.44 (2004 stock 205)
    Ringwood: 35.06 (30/10/2005)
    Winton: 1:33.6 (2017)

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Thanks for that info.

    I wish I could buy yours. its tempting. But in order for me to afford another car, I must sell mine. And as luck would have it. rather, not... I have not been able to get rid of my old Patrol.

    So its no choice but to trade her in, cut my losses and get into something newer.

    I'll keep you in mind though.

    pips

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Well,

    I've had the chance to see two more Mi16's.

    One was nice, but dodgey, the other was not nice, but tempting.

    First the tempting one:
    It was rough looking. But the engine was a perler. It went like no other 405 I've driven. No service history, no logs, nothing. As is. Take it. Something inside my head told me to keep walking.

    The dodgey one:
    I saw this one today. Nice condition. Engine looks like its seen better days. No oil leaks, no other fluid leaks. But the radiator was only half full. Squeezing the hoses, I could see the level rise in the tank. That was sus, as it was made well known to me at the dealer, that the car had a full NRMA inspection. PFFT!

    It also had a full service history. But all I saw were stamped log books. No reciepts, no other documents. I could have stamped those logs. This one also went pretty good though, after I told the salesman to top up the radiator. He was gonna let me test drive it with a half full cooling system. Idiot.

    So I walked from that one too.

    I just hope my car sells soon, so I can take a pick at the many fine examples I am starting to see on this forum.

    BTW, I noticed that the 405's (mainly mi16's - as this is the only model I have looked at) don't have coolant overflow reserviour tanks...or am I blind?

    If I am not blind, then, where does the coolant go during expansion? Just curious.

    Also, I noticed that this model I saw today...I am not sure if its the same with all the other models I have seen. Reverse gear is to the left of 1st.

    Is this the same down the line of all 405's? I only ask cause it didn't stand out so much on the others. No biggie. This is more of a "satisfy my hunger for knowledge" thing.

    Nearly all of the 405's I've seen have cracked dashboards. Particularly that panel that runs across the edge where the bottom of the windshield meets the dash. Is this common, cracked dashes?

    Thanks
    pips

  21. #21
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    the overflow is the big black tank thingy with the coolant cap on it. its the only overflow you got. theres a maximum fill level on that tube, and if you over fill it...when it gets hot it seeps out the top under your coolant cap.

    i own a series 1.5 and my reverse is to the far bottom right, below 5th. not sure if the series 1's are different as they have a different box to me.

    my dash is it top order, no cracks...anywhere. could just have been a neglict thing where they left the car out in the sun too long.
    2013 Megane RS 265 Trophy

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! pips's Avatar
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    Maybe this is how to tell the difference between a BE1 and an BE2 gearbox??? I haven't heard good things about these BE1's... Well, more of a preference to a "better" box.

    So the black tank of the left is the overflow. Well, not really. But I see what you mean now. Thinking about the car I saw with the low level of coolant was definately low. If what you say is correct and the filler tube has a level you must fill up to, then this was definately extremely low.

    Thanks for that info.

    Anyone else, could you elaborate on the gearbox differences.

  23. #23
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    Correct me if I'm wrong someone but...

    The BE1 gearbox is the early gearbox with reverse by first.

    The BE3 gearbox was introduced mid way through 1989 and has reverse below fifth.

    The BE3 is reputedly stronger.

    Most people would recommend the BE3, not that the BE1 is a 'bad gearbox' but the BE3 is definetely stronger.

    My 405 has the BE3 and my old 309 had the BE1 and I have to say that the BE1 was starting to become a bit of a sloppy box by the end of my ownership period.

    As far as dash cracks go, well I haven't noticed it to be a trend to be honest. I haven't seen any 405s with major dash cracks but then again New Zealand doesn't suffer the heat Australia does.

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pips
    Thanks for that informative post.

    I don't look at any peugeot (or car for that matter) as performance orientated. As I spent most of my life on motorcycles..nothing can compare.

    But, as far as cars and bikes go these days, I am alittle more mature about my driving and riding, and I prefer the torque and cornering speed rather then straight line performance.

    I learnt this with bikes and went Ducati because it put a smile on my face again.

    pips
    .... ahh yes. I'm on that boat too now. I don't like road cars anymore, as after bikes you said it best,... nothing can compare. I now of several friends that have also found bliss in a V twin. For me a real performance car, doesn't have a roof.
    Pips, if your still looking, come for a drive of my S16 at the Annual AF picnic. - Chris

    ps. I'll also be heading down the V-twin path, funds don't go a Duke, but a SV650 instead.... what kind of Cati do you have?
    ... ptui!

  25. #25
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    Why not think seriously about this if you have reasonable mechanical skills?
    Not often you can buy something like this with a history and talk honestly with the previous owner as he has nothing to gain by lying to you about it..
    It could end up being a bargain if bought for around the 1K mark and no reason why you couldn't put in a bid prior to the Auction or maybe get one of those car buyer types to bid on it for you up to a certain figure; don't know how far they could be trusted but there's been a few around for a while so some must be doing the right thing.

    Anyone going to bid on this today??


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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