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Thread: 404 engine

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 404 engine

    Hi,
    my friend just bought another 404, but this one is registered with many cool mods for $350. It's got a modified oil pump to suit a $4 holden filter, a tacho and semi sealed headlights - very cool.
    Anyway, he plans to compete in it, and i plan to pay half and build it up into a competitive car. I want to supercharge it with a low boost (3-4 pounds), but i'll only do this if the 404 engines are a 5 bearing engine. Does anyone know if they are a 5 bearing engine or a three bearing engine?
    Thanks,
    Andrew.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roo504
    Hi,
    my friend just bought another 404, but this one is registered with many cool mods for $350. It's got a modified oil pump to suit a $4 holden filter, a tacho and semi sealed headlights - very cool.
    Anyway, he plans to compete in it, and i plan to pay half and build it up into a competitive car. I want to supercharge it with a low boost (3-4 pounds), but i'll only do this if the 404 engines are a 5 bearing engine. Does anyone know if they are a 5 bearing engine or a three bearing engine?
    Thanks,
    Andrew.

    i think any 404 with a BA7 is 5 bearing

    that is any 404 from 68 onwards
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  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Much earlier than that!

    The way to tell a 3-bearing from a 5-bearing is the location of the engine number... it's on the left hand engine mounting in the same location as the 504 engine number on all five bearing engines.

    There's another little trick... the long-reach and short reach spark plugs... how to tell the heads apart... on the same side, just behind the water pump, you look for the letters 'CL' in the casting. That, from memory, denotes short reach plugs.

    EDIT to correct... CL (I meant to say) is, IIRC, the long reach plug head.

    Very important if you don't know and you want to put plugs in an engine... you don't want to put long reach plugs in a short reach head.

    I think it was 1964 that the 5-bearing engines started, maybe 1965. They certainly came out long before the C3 box was dropped.
    Last edited by Ray Bell; 6th December 2004 at 10:51 PM.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    The early 5 bearing engine arrived in sedans with Engine number 4,400,001 and onwards. Engines after 5,046,810 had a head providing slightly higher compression ratio giving 56kW instead of 53.

    Cheers

    Rod
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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Turbo-ing 404s

    Quote Originally Posted by Roo504
    Hi,
    my friend just bought another 404, but this one is registered with many cool mods for $350. It's got a modified oil pump to suit a $4 holden filter, a tacho and semi sealed headlights - very cool.
    Anyway, he plans to compete in it, and i plan to pay half and build it up into a competitive car. I want to supercharge it with a low boost (3-4 pounds), but i'll only do this if the 404 engines are a 5 bearing engine. Does anyone know if they are a 5 bearing engine or a three bearing engine?
    Thanks,
    Andrew.

    Hi Andrew,

    I am currently doing a project car, a 404 with 505 GTI motor in it.

    Suggest your friend have a good look around the forums for on-going
    threads about rust repairs - the last 404 imported to OZ was 1970 so they are all 35 years plus old and nearly all have rust, have a good look around the edges of the front cross member and the rear jacking mounts. Fix the rust first.

    As to turboing a 404 engine my inclination would be to dice the 1600 engine and start with a 2 litre xn ? 505 engine - more modern and better suited to ULP. Also more power to start with

    There are also some very interesting threads about turboing 505 engines on the forum too.

    For my money, I intend to stick with moderately tuned GTI motor with megasquirt engine management ,Wade cam, extractors, ported head and fully balanced. I'm aiming for about 110 kw at the wheels.

    But I'm fixing up the body first.

    And last word - don't under estimate the 404 - with a lttle bit of power they hold their own. (Ask Ray Bell)

    regards


    Rob

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    404's were still new in 71

    maybe not sedans but utes and wagons were
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    404 engines took well to surpercharging (witness the Australian Hillclimb Champion's car of the mid sixties...)... I wouldn't be afraid to pump a fair bit of pressure into the 1600 with the closed top block.

    It would rev better than the 2-litre as well.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    404 engines took well to surpercharging (witness the Australian Hillclimb Champion's car of the mid sixties...)... I wouldn't be afraid to pump a fair bit of pressure into the 1600 with the closed top block.

    It would rev better than the 2-litre as well.
    Yes, don't try to supercharge or turbocharge a 2 litre. You will have head gasket problems, maybe o-ringing the top of the liners would cure this?
    Nothing wrong with a three bearing 404, much stronger than the 403 bottom end and the compression ratio is right: 7 to 1, no need to decompress.
    Graham

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac
    ....As to turboing a 404 engine my inclination would be to dice the 1600 engine and start with a 2 litre xn ? 505 engine - more modern and better suited to ULP. Also more power to start with....
    Rob

    I wonder how hard it would be to fit a K Tronic XN6 into a 404. Just happen to have one here, fully reconditioned (pistons and liners etc) a few months before the old sLi was written off....Not as a turbo. Just a straight implant. Mmm. Might make a nice project some day.


    Cheers

    Rod
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    404 engines took well to surpercharging (witness the Australian Hillclimb Champion's car of the mid sixties...)... I wouldn't be afraid to pump a fair bit of pressure into the 1600 with the closed top block.

    It would rev better than the 2-litre as well.
    Hi,
    i thought about supercharging above any other method to make big gains in power because it's relatively easy, and can be fairly cheap if you do a home job. Also, if i only run 3-4 pounds of boost i'll get a significant increase in power and the engine will stand up to it. My cousin supercharged his V6 505, and it went really well, hope he'll help me out!
    May also put my round port head on the 1600 block too, get the engine breathing a bit better.

    Cheers,
    Andrew

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 404 engine

    Andrew,
    Round port head [2Litre] on a 1600? I don't think so.
    Combustion chamber diameter would overlap the bore plus many many more complications.
    If you need the extra capacity and the security of a closed top block for supercharging consider the first 504 1800 engine.
    I'm sure wiser counsel will prevail so expect lots of posts on the subject.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Supercharging 404s

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    404 engines took well to surpercharging (witness the Australian Hillclimb Champion's car of the mid sixties...)... I wouldn't be afraid to pump a fair bit of pressure into the 1600 with the closed top block.

    It would rev better than the 2-litre as well.
    Very true Ray, I had in my mind that the post stated "turbocharging" - supercharging is different albeit more mechanically demanding to set up.

    I had a 203C with a superharged 403 engine with a 2inch SU, apart from idle problems and "lumps in the petrol" down low it went very well.

    Although unless the 404 engine is pristine, I still think there are easier ways to increase the performance (like a bigger more modern motor) than supercharging.

  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Why not turbocharge?

    Use the early 404 manifold, take the pipe from the front of the manifold to the turbo, then out the back... pull the welch plugs from the inlet log and use two entries for the mix... and also, use fool injection.

    Or... pressurise the carby (put the whole thing into a box that cops the turbo pressure) and run it that way... Mercedes Benz style.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    are you talking of the one with the 4hp resonator hanging off it ?

    i thought they were later models that had them

    i know my 69 had one on it

    anyway a blower would be pretty easy

    they did this way back when so i'd ysa today it wouldn't be any harder

    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Le Constantin est le plus connu des compresseurs pour voitures populaires françaises, il était encore en production dans les années 1980, à ma connaissance il à équipé des 2 cv, des DS, des GS, des 203, des 403, des 504 et je compte sur vous pour combler mes lacunes et allonger cette liste.

    this is also from the same site

    from that i gather constantin blowers were made up till 1980 and were also fitted to 504's

    if i read that right then blowers were fitted to 2L 504 engines
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Contantin Blowers for 404

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    Le Constantin est le plus connu des compresseurs pour voitures populaires françaises, il était encore en production dans les années 1980, à ma connaissance il à équipé des 2 cv, des DS, des GS, des 203, des 403, des 504 et je compte sur vous pour combler mes lacunes et allonger cette liste.

    this is also from the same site

    from that i gather constantin blowers were made up till 1980 and were also fitted to 504's

    if i read that right then blowers were fitted to 2L 504 engines
    Hi 'rambo,


    Most impressed with your image of the four hundred and four with the blower.

    My attempt was not nearly as elegant -a rootes type cabin blower driven off double "a" section belts. Timing ands poly v belts wern't around at that time. The blower eventually failed because of the fuel air mix washing the lubrication off the lobes.

    I am surprised that Constantin manage to get enough torque thru a single "a" (it looks like an a section) section belt to drive the supercharger. It is certainly a tidy and professional adaption.

    Oh! to have access to the wrecking yards of Europe.


    Regards

    Robert

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 404 engine/Constantin

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    are you talking of the one with the 4hp resonator hanging off it ?

    i thought they were later models that had them

    i know my 69 had one on it

    anyway a blower would be pretty easy

    they did this way back when so i'd ysa today it wouldn't be any harder

    Pugrambo.
    Thanks for the Constantin blower on the 404 pictures.
    Not an ecu or a chip in sight.
    The fuel washing lubricant off the blower lobes problem may have been overcome with a sidedraught carb. Still the little Solex looks the part.

    Oop's. Right blower, wrong suggestion. The Constantin blower would have had an auxilliary oil feed from the engine ?
    The aircraft cabin blower, no ?

    Last edited by Wildebeest; 8th December 2004 at 03:37 AM. Reason: Add correction.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default ROOTES TYPE BLOWERS & OTHER STUFF

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Pugrambo.
    Thanks for the Constantin blower on the 404 pictures.
    Not an ecu or a chip in sight.
    The fuel washing lubricant off the blower lobes problem may have been overcome with a sidedraught carb. Still the little Solex looks the part.

    Oop's. Right blower, wrong suggestion. The Constantin blower would have had an auxilliary oil feed from the engine ?
    The aircraft cabin blower, no ?

    Hi wildbeest,

    The rootes lobe type aircraft cabin blowers ( mine was ex disposals for very little money in late 60's) had oil feed to either end of the gear boxes and a return to the sump. As I recall there was no lube to the lobe surfaces (wouldn't be necessary in the intended service as high volume air compressor for aircraft cabins)

    The fuel/ air mix is actually abrasive and was thought to have caused the failure - as advised by experts.

    The blower could just have been very tired !

    Although a mate destroyed one when the aircleaner bolt was digested by the blower !

    It's interesting that the Contantin setup looks like rootes type blower, with the carby on top too. Perhaps they used an upper cylinder lube like redex.

    I recall that I built an Electronics Australia CDI kit for the engine plus a phototransistor and lamp instead of the points - not really engine management
    but worked well -when it was going.

    regards


    Robert

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