AWD - designed for strife ?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    AWD - designed for strife ?

    ntrx's 'by line' AWD designed for strife is nagging at my conscience.

    What does this actually mean?

    Does ntrx actually not trust all wheel drive vehicles?
    I have driven WRX's and a Delta Integrale and would rather be in those cars in the rain than my squirrelly 205 with 'only' front wheel drive.

    Whats the logic ntrx?

    my seat is actually on fire as we speak...

    ipb

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  2. #2
    Tadpole
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    WRX......wash your mouth out !!!


    They would have to be my most DISLIKED car on the road !!!!!


    Ben

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    ntrx had what we could call an "unpleasant" experience in his RX Impreza. The AWD is great to a point, but watch out after that.

    That's why he saw the light and bought a GTi6.

  4. #4
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    ipb,

    1). Did you drive the Delta in Oz? 2). If so, was it RHD? 3). Where can I buy it?

    Seriously, what model of Integrale was it, you lucky @#$%^!

    BTW, isn't Webber from Queanbeyan? Any action there after his result?

    Cheers

    Stuey


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  5. #5
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    yes weber is from Queenbeyan
    i used to watch him in go-karts
    he was good to watch

    also does anybosy remember reading the article (i forget what mag now) that had the compare between the GTi6 and the WRX at eastern creek ?
    the GTi6 won hands down around the track
    now tell me the WRX handles better than a front wheel drive pug
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  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    the GTi6 won hands down around the track
    now tell me the WRX handles better than a front wheel drive pug [/QB][/QUOTE]

    Yeah - hang on dudes I think you're all missing the point.

    I drove the Delta LHD in Germany on a restricted Autobahn and it felt so very stable in the rain at 130-150kmh - unlike my 205 in the same situation.
    Yes the 306 v the WRX was a great article and it was surprising to see the Australian motoring press rate it so highly - as they dislike French cars usually.

    Still I stand behind my point that the WRX is a great handler and that some people on this forum should widen their horizons a little - there are some good cars out there to be experienced.

    There are a number of Lancia Deltas in the country available to buy - they are fairly pricy though and most later ones were LHD only. Talk to Grahame at lanciaaustralia.com.au.

    my 2 cents.
    ipb

    ntrx - what actually did happen in your RX Impreza?

  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ian,

    I think the aversion to AWD comes down to the fact that the higher the levels of grip are, the higher the speed you're doing when the car eventually lets go, so the scares (or accidents) can be much worse.

    When I had my 404 with 165/80 tyres I could get predictable 4 wheel drifts going at 40km/h. To do the same thing in my 504 with 195/65 tyres, I'd have to be doing around twice the speed, so I never use the chassis to 100% of its capability, because I could kill myself.

    Some people, however, will try drifting every car, no matter how high the levels of grip are. Personally, the higher the levels of grip, the more I avoid getting close to the break away point.

    No matter how good the grip is, I take it easy in the wet. A friend of mine got over confident with his WRX in the wet and crashed into a tree. Thankfully, both he and my other friend who was in the car came out unscathed.

    Dave
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  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger!
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    ipb205 - sorry dude it was not meant to irritate anyone, it was a wee joke based on my experience writing an Impreza off in a fairly huge fashion.

    I will change it immediately, if not sooner!

    I'll explain my circumstances.

    Set up with at 4K invested in shocks, springs, swaybars, braces and alignment bits and bobs, I considered my Impreza one of the best handling cars I'd driven. Mid corner grip was absolutely stunning, phenominal in fact, and it inspired much more confidence than my GTi6 does.

    But push Subaru's AWD over the limit and it starts getting dicey. As for my crash, AWD did jack shit for me when I was sideways at 110kph . I did what I was supposed to do with my foot flat to the floor (in a good rev range) in 3rd, pointed in the right direction. It just helped me oversteer for longer, eventually I couldn't catch it and only made myself hit the armco on the wrong side of the road faster, and head on - causing a 180 degree spin. I was sideways in between 50 and 100 metres. A big hit.
    Maybe it was the car, the AWD, the tyres, or the fact that the driver decided to take a marked 45kph corner accelerating over 100 kph... but I'd done it before in a similar fashion and car had never behaved in that fashion before. And given the way AWD is supposed to work, I thought I had a fighting chance to get through it.

    I believe AWD is excellent to a point. The fact is though, once the rear end comes out in an Impreza - it is quite a hairy experience, regardless of the setup unless you've gone and put in LSDs.

    I'm not just talking about an Impreza's chassis. Oversteer induced by slippery surfaces and AWD power transfer under acceleration is quite full on when it occurs in an Impreza. I've been passenger in a WRX that was accelerating around a corner that was, to our surprise, covered in gravel. We hit the corner at perhaps 70kph, accelerating in 2nd gear. The front lost traction, it put the power to the rear, the car went sideways and the driver decked the throttle and corrected. We very nearly did a 180 with all wheels spinning, then it caught last minute and flung us back pointed in the right direction but by that time we were in the grass off the side of the road.

    This was a corner at 70kph! Any normal, pedestrian driver could have done the same thing, my friend driving wasn't being too radical.

    I'm not criticising it entirely, I just think Subaru's AWD gives people too much confidence that they're invincible and they'll never understeer or oversteer (what a load of bollocks!), and that's why I played with their slogan "Designed for Life."

    cheers
    Adrian

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    I agree with most people here.

    WRX has a bad image because there are a hell of a lot of annoying people that drive them like they own the road.

    Great car, loser drivers (most at least)

    I have great respect for the car, but would never buy one, for all the safety aspects of AWD it seems to lose some of the "fun" (good or bad) that FWD and RWD cars have.

    just my thoughts

    Jono
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  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
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    The people I know who own WRXs are mostly excellent drivers.

    The people who give WRXs a bad name are the ones who drag around in populated city areas trying to prove a point.

    Unfortunately, the people I know who own WRXs have a large amount of criticism for them in a number of areas, especially when they're in stock form (ie woeful understeer under power, on very mild bends)

    I have, however, been extremely impressed by some sensibly modified ones though (suspension and brakes).

  11. #11
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    It seems too much grip can inspire over confidence with disasterous results. Good grip also seems to have no bearing on how easy a car is to control once it does lose grip.

    I think it's safer to have lower levels of grip, but with a chassis that is easy to control in a slide. Controlability in slides is where Peugeots excel.

    Dave
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  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger!
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    On the money Dave...

  13. #13
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    [quote]Originally posted by davemcbean:
    <strong>Controlability in slides is where Peugeots excel.
    </strong><hr></blockquote>

    On that note, when I was younger and sillier, I crested a mountain in the wet in a 504 at 110km/h. This was the big mountain on the road between Mudgee and Lithgow. The car had 175 Michelin MX tyres on the front
    and 195 firestones on the back. Needless to say, this was a bad tyre combination. When I crested the mountain, I realised there was a right hand bend imediately in front of me. The tail came out, but it was very easy to bring back into line. Actually, the chassis dynamics of the car seemed to bring it back into line by itself. I've had countless experinces where a 504 has corrected itself faster than I could ever correct it (the advantage of slow steering is you can't possibly over correct).

    My 404 was much the same, except for the fact that when I had a 13" steering wheel, I used to over correct and interfere with the cars natural ability to correct itself. With the standard wheel the steering was just about right (not too quick, not to slow), and excellent for controlled drifts.

    Dave

    Dave
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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Didn't mean to offend WRX owners just the ones who as it was said drag around town in a dangerous manner.

    Jono
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    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    "Designed for Life"

    and therein lies the answer to my question 'designed for strife'

    something to think about I guess.
    ipb

  16. #16
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    Hello,

    I think a idiot is a idiot no matter what he drives.
    Awd's r designed for safety (In adverse conditions because of extra grip)
    Thats why they sell in fact ask a suburu driver and they say they love the safety,build quality of their cars.
    The above people don't buy awd to drag off people off the lights (They buy it for all round roamability in all types of conditions)
    Now why compare a 205 with a wrx
    I have driven both and will add something here
    The build quality is much better in the wrx
    The grip is greater (especially if you love to take off quick)
    Understeer is a problem in both cars
    You have to consider the age of the vehicles it would be better comparing the 306 gti6
    Room is shocking in the subaru (I don't fit in it but to peoples amazement fit in the 205 even if the headroom is tight (I am 6-4 230lbs)
    In my world the 205 can never be beat unless you fill the car up with people and they become a real dog to drive (Because of the limited suspension travel)
    or unless you have a exotic like a 944 or something special.
    In fact it is the weaknesses that make the car great.
    205 is the light fantastic and is a pleasure to drive
    I got sick of the wrx's weight real quick
    To be honest though i only really started to enjoy the 205 with the higher output S2 engine.
    It was a real dog and i had to flog it to even win a race against a camira and bluebird (Sporting with 74kw's not)
    wrx is a great car but the 205 is a greater in the fun factor and handles more fluently.
    stability of course goes to the rex but mainly because of the weight wheelbase and such not because it is better engineered in fact with some aerodynamic aids you should be able to stick the 05 down to the tarmac.

    In fact when the turbo is completed i will get some revenge in some of the after midnight battles and on track at the island (Phillip island)
    What would be the greatest though
    205 4x4 cosworth wide body
    205 4x4 nissan sr20 or the legendary fj20 wide body
    (Then you would have some real fun :eek


    Murat

  17. #17
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Yes.

    I have nothing else to add to this argu-sation. Just sitting back hear reading what people ahve to say about the WRX as I have had no experiance in them so cannot compare them to my S16. Which brings me to another question...

    What is the difference in the handeling and drive between the S16 and the GTi6? From what I can tell the GTI6 has cosmetic differences, 6 speed box and a more powerfull engine.

    Has anyone driven both to compare?


    Brad
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  18. #18
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    It's all been said before. And how.

    <a href="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=000210&p=1" target="_blank">http://www.aussiefrogs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=000210&p=1</a>

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    just go for the best of both worlds...a 205 T16


    Andreas

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  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger!
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    eesh, I was a nasty bugger in that thread...

    I hate it when I get hot headed..

  21. #21
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    Phasis - as far as I know the differences in handling would only lie in a slight improvement in chassis rigidity, else I'm pretty sure the torsion bar thickness, spring rates and dampers are the same.

  22. #22
    rek
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    [quote]Originally posted by pugrambo:
    <strong>also does anybosy remember reading the article (i forget what mag now) that had the compare between the GTi6 and the WRX at eastern creek ?
    the GTi6 won hands down around the track
    now tell me the WRX handles better than a front wheel drive pug </strong><hr></blockquote>

    does anyone have a copy of this article that can be scanned in? i'd be quite interested to read this ...
    Peter
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  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    Me too.

  24. #24
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i'll see if i still have a copy of it or not
    if i have i will scan it in for you
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  25. #25
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    Guys,
    You might also be interested in this one.
    Different result though

    <a href="http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~scoobydoo/imprezaweb/reviews/handling.htm" target="_blank">http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~scoobydoo/imprezaweb/reviews/handling.htm</a>

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