306 S16 engine pinging
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    306 S16 engine pinging

    My S16 engine pings under light to moderate load, especially noticeable in 3rd gear on light to medium throttle openings. It only seems to happen when a decent amount of heat gets into the engine bay, that is, in heavy traffic or engine on/off/on situations where heat soak becomes common. The car only uses BP Ultimate 98. The temperature gauge never goes past half way. I have replaced a coil pack recently...perhaps the others may be on the way out. I have used an injector cleaner and that has made the car rev better, but the pinging remains. While it is not excessive, it shouldn't really happen at all, especially on what is (apparently) 98 RON fuel. Any ideas?

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    1995 306 S16....now has a new home.
    2003 Astra Turbo

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    How does the car run on Optimax?

    BP should be ok, maybe SA has a poor quality control in BP?

    Anti knock sensor may be to blame as well. But I wouldnt know where to begin diagnosing it.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

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  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    have you got a standard air filter on it ?
    3 x '78 604 SL

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  4. #4
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    My 306 XR has done the same thing ever since I bought it - pinging around the gear change points, once the car gets hot, etc, etc. My temp gauge also doesn't go past halfway.

    I have used nothing but 98 RON fuel in the car. I used only Optimax until earlier this year, but was unable to get it at one point and used a tank of BP ultimate instead - which significantly lessened the pinging (and the engine ran smoother and there was a little more power), although it does still occur.

    After I took it back to the Peugeot service people a number of times, their service manager finally confessed that Peugeots (or at least 306s) don't run well at high temperatures and in hot climates - and I have definitely noticed the problem is far worse in summer. A couple of attempts to retard the ignition timing have not significantly helped the problem.

    I have often wondered if improving the air intake to improve cooling would assist, but have no idea how to go about this.

    Sorry I can't provide a solution, but it might help to know it isn't just you.

    penelope_s

  5. #5
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    I have never heard my engine ping once, even when I had to put 91RON in it for a short time.

    Could it be caused by age and deposits on the piston head increasing the compression ratio above the flash point of the fuel?
    B to the R to the A from the D
    1994 MX5 Clubman...are you sure it's not French?

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Try running some octane boost, and see how it runs then.

    If this helps then you prob had a really bad batch of fuel, if not may be a knock sensor could be faulty.

    Does it still ping if u open the throttle full??

  7. #7
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    With all due respects guys, if the car is running OK & all of a sudden stuffs up, all the high octane/fuel boosters in the world ain't gunna fix it. It will give some relief for a short space of time by hiding the symptoms, until whatever is lying down to die carks a bit further until eventually, you'll be left sitting on the side of the road one night or it just won't start even if you are running rocket fuel in it.
    Before I started tearing sensors out wholesale, I'd be inclined to fix/get checked, the underbonnet wiring to some of these sensors. Froggies aren't all that brilliant in the flimsy wiring department and often wires left exposed to constant heat start to anneal & harden internally causing some weird readings. A dodgy wire to say an engine temperature sensor could cause the spark to go + or - due to thinking it's either hotter or colder than the sensor is telling it.
    However, if it proves to be all OK in the wiring department, then here's a thing from a web page.

    "KNOCK SENSOR
    A) The knock sensor detects potentially harmful detonation and sends this information electrically to the ECU. B) The vibration caused by detonation compresses the crystal inside the knock sensor, resulting in a momentary voltage. In Motronic, the ECU uses this signal to retard the timing as necessary. AKA) Detonation Sensor"

    The reason I suspect possibly a wiring degradation problem is that it seems so common with 306s which to me says that there could be a wire sitting to a sensor in a vulnerable spot due to heat, moisture or dirt & grease or there is a knock sensor of dubious quality.
    I'd like to see someone sort this out as it seems to be such a common problem. I'm on a couple of overseas boards where there's a lot of Pug owners; might ask there one day & see if they've had the same problem over there too.
    mallet mallet

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    ....ahh My S16 had never detonated/pinged.
    I think its the fuel regulator. Coil packs are a common PIA!.
    AFAIK, S16's don't have knock/detantion sensors of anykind. I might be wrong though. Even if you did have a Knock sensor this wont stop heavy Pinging.
    Have the fuel filter looked at and what heat range the plugs are, and stick it on a proper diagnostc machine to see if for some reason the timing has drifted or altered.
    Also your throtle position sensor and the small presure tubing from the inlet manifold that runs along and into the ECU behind the battery.
    You dont want to leave this for much longer. By the way is it Pinging that you can actuall hear?? - chris
    ... ptui!

  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Saw a piston out of a 300ZX a little while back that looked like it had been hit with an oxy cutter. Put down as detonation. When asked, driver said he just "flattened it" whenever it detonated/pinged and that seemed to cure it, so as has been said; be warned, it's not as a benign problem as it may appear.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  10. #10
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    I'm pretty sure the S16 does have a knock sensor. It's a plastic looking device bolted to the block close to the head, with a wire connected to it. A simple test is to rev the engine to about 2,500 rpm then tap it with a small screwdriver. This'll simulate engine knock and the engine should change tempo a bit. Ideally, a timing light should be used to see if the timing is retarded.

    By the way, you can hear some pinging in knock sensor equipped cars, but it shouldn't be excessive. The system allows the engine to get to the point of knock at all times because this is the most efficient, and it relies on the noise from knocking to detect when it's there, then constantly adjusts the ignition timing to stay just retarded from this point. So you'll hear some slight knock, at least.

    As Brad said, deposits can increase pinging, but usually because the sharp edges of 'furry' carbon build up glows hot and pre-ignites the mixture.

    Cheers

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  11. #11
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    O.K. Here's a response I got from a guy on the UK board who seems to know what it's all about.

    "Too warm out there mate. find the resistance of the efi's temp sensor hot and cold then if the resistance rises as it gets hot, shove a resistor in parallel, if it falls, series. email me if you need more help but I think it will enrich it a bit."

    Does that make any sense to anyone or do you want me to get more detailed info?
    I can e-mail him directly if necessary.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Alan S:
    Saw a piston out of a 300ZX a little while back that looked like it had been hit with an oxy cutter. Put down as detonation. When asked, driver said he just "flattened it" whenever it detonated/pinged and that seemed to cure it, so as has been said; be warned, it's not as a benign problem as it may appear.

    Alan S
    Fear Factory in full production.

    ...

    SA S16,
    check your timing. I am not sure how to simulate "load" so that the engine will ping, running road dyno? then you can see if the timing is being retarded enough.
    If it is retarding, that means you are most probably running lean, any decent workshop with exhaust analyser will be able to tell you if your fuel regualtor/temp sensor is not working properly. That is what Alan was refering to.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  13. #13
    Tadpole
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    Shell Optimax is very rare in SA, although you can get Mobil 8000 and BP Ultimate at most metro outlets. The car is stock standard, I've had all filters replaced 8,000 km ago. I'll have it looked at ASAP and let you know what happens....it's not excessive pinging but needs to be fixed. The frustration is that it doesn't happen all the time and may be difficult to replicate at the workshop. The car also seems to get some flatspots in the rev range at the same time, which led me to believe that one or more coil packs were on the way out. The last one that failed went over about a 2 week period berfore dying and leaving me with 3 cylinders. Thanks for all your ideas.
    1995 306 S16....now has a new home.
    2003 Astra Turbo

  14. #14
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Check your spark plugs man.
    B to the R to the A from the D
    1994 MX5 Clubman...are you sure it's not French?

  15. #15
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I am still getting responses & interest from overseas on this one.
    It seems to be a common one whilst also being one that only some cars have a problem with, so it is a fault; no doubt. If I get any definitive answers from over there I will be posting them on this thread.
    I'm treating it just as a bit of a project to settle my own curiosity....I really should take up growing bloody roses or something I suppose, dance but it seems a bit mystifying to me why it happens to some and not to others.
    An idea I am presently floating that I'd like to hear if someone has tried, is has anyone with the problem had their injector nozzles ultra sonically cleaned?
    I'm wondering if perhaps it's being caused by fuel starvation due to partially blocked injectors?

    Anyone ever tried this???

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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