Talk about a poor 180
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Marc's Avatar
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    Default Talk about a poor 180

    I was looking at other sites when i came across these photos, what i could make out from the forum is that the poeple walked out of the car only with some minor scratches and bruisers.

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    Last edited by Marc; 17th August 2004 at 11:55 AM.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Marc's Avatar
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    it fell of the hill
    heres the forum
    http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl...D%26ie%3DUTF-8
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    Fellow Frogger! choiboi's Avatar
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    That's nasty almost every panel bent and dented. ESP off? haha

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    That's some A-class work there. Anyone actually know what the fool was doing to cause that heart breaking mess?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jester_fu
    Almost full marks for that one... If you're going to write off your car, then do it right... do it THIS way! He looses 10 points for not getting that left rear quarter panel, and tail light. I mean, seriously, i would have kicked it in just to make sure every panel was dented. I've done it before....
    One extra spare rim for someone though !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by choiboi
    That's nasty almost every panel bent and dented. ESP off? haha
    How many '180 owners actually drive with their ESP on? If so, then why??
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    How many '180 owners actually drive with their ESP on? If so, then why??
    It can save you ???? Actaully the only times I've heard of 180 drivers having a "moment" (some big some small) is when ESP has been turned off. Sounds like it works though ..

    NB: no amount of ESP will save you if you ask a car to do the impossible !
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    It can save you ???? Actaully the only times I've heard of 180 drivers having a "moment" (some big some small) is when ESP has been turned off. Sounds like it works though ..

    NB: no amount of ESP will save you if you ask a car to do the impossible !
    I can understand something like ABS is valuable, but with ESP it seems like the whole point of being able to feel the chassis balance and adjust steering, throttle and brake accordingly is lost. My own experience when driving the '180 is the ESP changes the attitude of the car. In tight corners the understeer can't be corrected as easily using lift-off oversteer. Instead the computer just manages to wash off speed whilst the slip angle still remains. Of course the car can then be turned in and driven out of the corner, but a lot of momentum is lost.

    Also I think owners who keep the ESP switched on will end up relying on the computer to correct their stuff-ups rather than be aware of how not to stuff up in the first place, or if it does occur, know how to correct it themselves. Sorry, I just realised I didn't really word my question well. I meant Do drivers keep their ESP on whilst having a fang, and if so, then why?? I can understand there are definitely times, usually way too early in the morning before coffee when the brain is still asleep and though not driving fast it's a useful safety feature to have. But when having a fang, I think leaving the ESP on encourages over-driving the car as you can get away doing things that you'd normally not attempt.

    Anyway, definitely no scientific evidence to my theory! It's just that, a theory. What do others think?

    Also as you said, and a very good point it is, re ESP can't do the impossible!
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    I can understand something like ABS is valuable, but with ESP it seems like the whole point of being able to feel the chassis balance and adjust steering, throttle and brake accordingly is lost.
    In theory that is nice .. you 'could" say the same thing about ABS (yes you can brake better without ABS IF (BIG IF) you are skilled enough (which face it, most of ain't) But in practice ESP is there for the lowest common denominator, and with so many other northern hemisphere countries experiencing roads a lot worse then ours (think ice & snow) ESP is going to become the norm .. not the exception eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    I meant Do drivers keep their ESP on whilst having a fang, and if so, then why??
    I think you'll find most of them turn it off .. mainly to do with drive out of corners, but most have agreed it does a good job of correction if you have pushed it a little toooooo far. How far ??? well that's the debate, how early should it cut in ??? I know driving an Outback H6 it cuts in FAR to early, especially on gravel where I'm used to sliding the car everywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    Also as you said, and a very good point it is, re ESP can't do the impossible!
    Same for all electronic aids .. until the car is smart enough to stop you speeding in the first place (and steer the car) ... ESP, ABS and all the other electonic gizmo's won't do jack ... but they probably help Joe Shmoe in everyday situations .. don't be surprised if insurance companies start asking car companies to keep data on how many times your ABS was activated, how many times ESP cut in and when ESP was turn off/on .. black boxes in cars are already a reality.

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    forgive my ingnorance and/or lack of knowledge but waht exactly is ESP and what does it do ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    In theory that is nice .. you 'could" say the same thing about ABS (yes you can brake better without ABS IF (BIG IF) you are skilled enough (which face it, most of ain't) But in practice ESP is there for the lowest common denominator, and with so many other northern hemisphere countries experiencing roads a lot worse then ours (think ice & snow) ESP is going to become the norm .. not the exception eventually.


    I think you'll find most of them turn it off .. mainly to do with drive out of corners, but most have agreed it does a good job of correction if you have pushed it a little toooooo far. How far ??? well that's the debate, how early should it cut in ??? I know driving an Outback H6 it cuts in FAR to early, especially on gravel where I'm used to sliding the car everywhere.

    Same for all electronic aids .. until the car is smart enough to stop you speeding in the first place (and steer the car) ... ESP, ABS and all the other electonic gizmo's won't do jack ... but they probably help Joe Shmoe in everyday situations .. don't be surprised if insurance companies start asking car companies to keep data on how many times your ABS was activated, how many times ESP cut in and when ESP was turn off/on .. black boxes in cars are already a reality.

    - XTC206 -
    I just don't see ABS in the same light, especially if it doesn't cut in too early, simply because it doesn't change the entire attitude of the car. But yeah, good point about ESP being necessary in countries with lots of snow/ice etc. I think having a stability control system is a great thing, but as long as there is always an option for the driver to switch it on and off.

    I was curious how many owners do switch it off for their fangs. I personally know one '180 owner who ALWAYS keeps it on (bad_karma) and another who turns it off for fangs (LeighO).

    Insurance companies tapping into black box data. That's a scary thought

    edit: Orestes, ESP is for Electronic Stability (Program??) but basically it's a stability control system which applies braking to individual wheels when the car understeers or oversteers to get the car back to a neutral attitude. When I drove it, I noticed it certainly did quell any oversteer, but with understeer it seemed to just cut out throttle for the most part. It would've been nice if it braked the rear wheels more to slide the rear out and dial out the understeer, but I guess there could be problems with that.
    Last edited by jastanis; 17th August 2004 at 09:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    forgive my ingnorance and/or lack of knowledge but waht exactly is ESP and what does it do ?
    Some stuff for ya ... ripped straight from the web ...

    Manufacturers are now including more standard safety features such as ABS with EBD, CBC, EBA and even ESP. Great isn't it? Oh sorry, don't you know what they are? Well neither did I. With the help of Bosch technical know how over the next few months, I will be reviewing technical terms used when promoting braking, engines, safety, gears, and comfort, so at least you'll know what you're buying!

    The most common standard braking term you'll come across will be ABS. It stands for Anti lock Braking System. An estimated ten percent of road accidents occur because a car's wheels have locked, either because the driver has hit the brake pedal too hard in difficult conditions, or in sheer panic! ABS was first introduced by Bosch 25 years ago and basically reduces the possibility of locking wheels.

    Next up, is TCS, which stands for Traction Control System. This was originally developed in Formula One racing and comes into its own when driving in adverse weather conditions, on loose surfaces, or hills. If it senses that a tyre is slipping, it automatically activates the brakes at that wheel or reduces engine power, or both, slowing the wheel down until full grip is restored.

    ESP may mean extra sensory perception in some intuitive circles and almost sums up the spontaneous attributes of the Electronic Stability Programme. All the components used in ABS and traction control are there but ESP goes a step further. Sensors monitor the car's speed, both forwards and sideways
    and checks the direction that the steering wheel is pointing. It spots any deviations, then selectively brakes individual wheels and cuts engine power to regain control.

    Imagine the scenario which happened to a friend, waiting to pull onto a roundabout. He sees a car that has misjudged the corner, approaching far too quickly. The car's momentum is going to carry it straight forward and all my friend can do is sit there and wait for the inevitable smash. If the inexperienced youngster's car had had ESP, it would have cut engine power and braked the rear inside wheel, tweaking the car back on line before the drift got out of control, even if the panicking teenager had kept his foot
    on the accelerator!

    You may also come across EBA which stands for Emergency Brake Assist which automatically brakes the car harder and more consistently than even an experienced the driver is likely to achieve. EBA is available in many Renault models and it effectively reduces the stopping distance. There are others too. BMW Mini has its own CBC, Cornering Brake Control and Peugeot has EBFD which is an Electronic Brake-Force Distribution of stopping effort between the wheels, for maximum effect.

    All in all, it somehow engenders a dangerous feeling of invincibility! [XTC206 - love this line !!!]


    More ....

    Bosch expands ESP functions
    By 2006, Bosch will have added a range of new features to ESP, the firm has announced at the Frankfurt International Motor Show.

    For example, Bosch expects the "Hill Hold Control" function to be fitted as standard in many medium-sized and compact cars during the next few years.

    Further development on ESP will add such functions as "Brake Disc Wiping" and "Electronic Brake Prefill". The former brings the brake pads into light contact with the brake discs at regular intervals in order to remove the film of moisture. The latter reacts when the driver pulls his foot off the accelerator pedal suddenly. It places the brake pads immediately in contact with the discs in order to reduce the stopping distance in emergency braking. These functions are included in ESPlus, the upgraged version of ESP, which will probably go into mass production in 2005.

    For executive and luxury cars, Bosch will offer the highest level of development of the new range of products - with extra functions such as "Soft

    Stop" and "Stop & Go". "Soft Stop" makes for completely smooth stopping by automatically reducing the braking pressure just before the vehicle comes to a halt.

    "Stop & Go" supplements automatic distance and speed regulation systems such as Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) with convenient automatic braking until the vehicle is at rest, meaning a vehicle equipped with ACC can automatically slow down and accelerate again in stop start traffic. Bosch expects the launch date for a new version of its Electrohydraulic Brake (EHB) - which is needed for these function - to be in 2006.

    The coming years will also see enhanced systems reaching the market in which ESP is an important component. For example, the Active Steering system which has just started to be fitted as standard in the BMW 5-series cars improves handling in relation to driving speed on the one hand, whilst also permitting automatic steering correction to be carried out in coordination with ESP, thus stabilizing the car more rapidly and comfortably in critical situations.

    Bosch is also preparing an Automated Parking Brake (APB), for volume production. APB will make it possible for the first time for vehicle manufacturers to dispense entirely with either cables or electric motors that make up existing systems. Instead the driver will operate the parking brake simply by pressing a button or switch to actuate hydraulically-controlled calipers.

    - 25 years after series production began, ABS inventor Bosch has just delivered its 100 millionth brake control system with the ABS anti-locking function.
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




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    Not another silver 180 in the dump...... Guys remember the other silver at the Pickles Auction.......is not the same 1 right??? Talking about ESP, how come the 307cc has the ESP function but in my 307XSi doesnt have that function at all...... i think with ESP my car will be much safer.......... I know that in Europe all the 307 has ESP standard........ Wonder why Australian version don't have that

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    Not as bad as the flood in UK. There are quite a lot of pugs caught in the flash flood. I swear I saw a silver 505 being washed into the harbour.

    And the one in the attachment looks like a white 105 and blue 307 on top of it.



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    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    With a Volvo stuck in between?
    Regards,

    Simon

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    2014 208 GTi 2007 207 GTi 2004 206 GTi180 2000 206 GTi 1995 306 XT

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    Quote Originally Posted by jester_fu
    And exactly how sensative are you to chassis dynamics when THAT is your description of how it feels?
    huh? Sensitive enough. I probably wasn't very clear again. Basically when I drove the car with the ESP on, when it started to only just oversteer, the ESP system distinctly cut in to stop further oversteer, even without any corrective steering input on my part, the car took on a nice neutral stance.

    Now when the car was pushed to understeer with ESP on, throttle was cut which I expected, but I did not feel any distinctive rear braking..or at least not enough to reduce any of the slip angle caused by the understeer. The understeer itself was obviously stopped by the reduction in speed, and therefore more steering input could be added to get the car back on line, but it felt no different than in any other understeering car where the driver does the speed reduction to stop the understeer and then adds more steering input to get the car back on line. Maybe it's because with the ESP on, it refuses to use any oversteer to dial out the understeer??

    With the ESP off, the very useful trait of lift-off oversteer could be used when the car started to understeer to get the car back on the correct line.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    The thing is, when the car is understeering you don't want to straighten the cars attitude as that's the whole problem in the first place, the car is going straight instead of pointing into the corner, and therefore an ideal stability system would actively point the nose back into the corner. I've heard the EVO's active yaw control system is the best one of this type to date. The driver basically points the steering to where they want to go and the car does its best to achieve that by controlling which end of the car to slide, brake and apply drive to.

    You're right though with the '180's ESP, from memory I don't think it completely cuts the throttle when understeering, but just stopped revs from rising further, and also brakes were applied. It just seemed that, though it did do a good job at preventing further understeer and even tighten the line somewhat, the ESP didn't actively reduce the existing slip angle significantly nor allow the driver to use oversteer to do it. It's not very noticable when going through a sweeper and going fast enough that the nose starts to run wide very slightly, I didn't feel that ESP even came on then and backing off the throttle a tiny bit myself was enough to tighten the line nicely. Where it was very noticable was in slow corners, for example I tried it around a medium sized roundabout, and purposely pushed the car to what would've been heavy understeer had the ESP not cut in to stop the sliding, however where the nose was pointing compared to where the wheels were pointing was quite a large angle so I tapped the brakes mid corner to provoke some oversteer that would get the car pointing into the corner again.

    I can completely understand why the ESP wouldn't let this happen, because the whole point of it is to stop wheels sliding. It's not going to differentiate between useful sliding and 'you're about to go off a cliff' sliding. Anyway, as you pointed out it does prevent the fastest way around a corner because you can't probe the limits of traction without the ESP punishing you by washing off the speed, which is why I was curious as to how many people turn it off so they can play with the car's balance.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    Insurance companies tapping into black box data. That's a scary thought
    It happens already in the US. And don't be surprised if you won't be able to turn ESP "off" on the next generation of car .. tinkering with it will make your insurance invalid. Welcome to BIG BROTHER ... with millions of housemates (most of which won't have any shackles on them until they buy a new car).

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    I canít really comment on the benefits and pitfalls of ESP, EBD Ö.. because my 306 only has ABS and I havenít really driven a car fitted with anything else to the extent that I have needed to rely on the systems. But I must admit that it has been useful not having to worry about managing the brake pedal while trying to negotiate your way out of a sticky situation, by the same token though I have become more complacent about braking with the knowledge that all I have to do is slam them on and the ABS will do the rest.

    While itís probably not the norm I did recently have the situation when I was flying through a roundabout at the limit and someone pulled out in front of me, the only avoidance was to reverse the carís direction and force the back to slide out, if all I did was brake then we would have ended up in an accident Ö so does that mean that ESP would have prevented the car from sliding and avoiding the accident?? Incidentally thatís not the only time that I have had to maneuver the car in a way that ESP would probably restrict.

    There is also a legitimate downside to all the technology too (not just people who enjoy driving afraid of losing the ability to drive the way they like) and thatís when my in-laws, who live at the beach and have always owned Nissan Patrol Diesels, bought a BMW X5, had it for a month, sold it and returned to Nissan. They just had too many problems with the BMW on the gravel and sand because the electronic systems kept cutting in and either stopping the car from cornering properly or bogging it down.

    With the Black Box/Big Brother discussion, there was a report in the paper some time ago about an Australian who hired a car in the United States, and several weeks after he got home he received a substantial speeding fine in the mail. Apparently the car he had was fitted with a satellite navigation system that they used to calculate his speed on various roads and issue the fines. A group action was taken out against the hiring company (we are talking about the States after all) and the fines were quashed as the fineprint on the hiring documentation that dealt with fines was Ďtoo fineí!

    It seems that itís going to become the case that the vehicle is going to do more and more and the driver is going to become just another passenger, there just to monitor and correct Ö I think Iíll keep my old Lancia just for fun!!!

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    : reading between the lines off what you have written, you where clearly going to fast on a public road in an unsuitable location. You deserved to have an accident, and it's pure luck/skill that you avoided it. [/QUOTE]


    You read too much between the lines. OK time for me to get a bit defensive. I do admit that I drive to the road rules and will do 110 in a 100 zone and stuff like that, but in over 30 years I have never had a traffic violation and never push the car beyond itís limits or in breach of safety during normal driving.

    The full details of the roundabout incident are that the other driver came out from the far lane beside (behind) a truck that had stopped for me and at the speed he was traveling I donít think that he would have even slowed down before entering the roundabout. Otherwise there is excellent vision, the roundabout itself is large and flat with no obstacles (unless there is a truck), at the time I entered the only other vehicle around was the truck itself that was clearly slowing down for me. If I was in the left hand lane it would have been fine as I would have been able to pull around behind the other car, but as I was in the right lane and he was traveling too fast to be able to stop before blocking my exit I had no option but to change the momentum of the car as fast as I could. So no, I wasnít driving too fast for public streets, I wasnít driving defensively either, but well within the ability of the car and driver to handle the maneuver and below the speed limit, there are some times that drivers, myself included, do stupid things that others donít expect.

    To my defense, if my car had ESP it wouldnít have cut in when I was going through the roundabout Ö what do you know, ESP does have some use after all!

    Having driven the BMW X5 it is reassuring to know that there are systems that are designed to help keep it on the road, well bitumen anyway. I found that it was really hard to gage what the car was doing a lot of the time, because when you are in it you are so completely closed off from the outside that you are in your own world. Donít get me wrong, itís a great car if thatís what you like, but because it doesnít really let you know when you are getting it into difficulty it would be easy to push too far, which is when the electronics have their place. Also considering the sort of people who are buying that type of car then they probably do need to have some sort of backup. With the way that the cars themselves are going today, far more power for a lot less money, there are more and more people buying higher performance machines that realistically donít know how to manage them, so yes, I can see why there would be a place for electronics to help them stay in control. But letís hope that the essence of enjoyable driving is never lost.

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    Fellow Frogger! Marc's Avatar
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    In the 180 i have noticed that when i have put my foot down on some uneven roads the esp keeps flashing on and off. And from my postion it doesn't feel like it brakes it just reduces the power to the wheels to maximise the speed of the car. For that reason i would leave esp on while driving. Corners are a totally different thing. i am talking from in experience so correct me if i'm wrong i have yet to kick the esp on a corner but i feel the only reason it would go on is if your arse would be sliding out. but would this not help you control the corner.

    One case i was on a hill in the rain a a couple of days ago i took of and my wheels starting spinning so my normal reaction was to take my foot of the accelerator but the esp was alredy handiling the problem and corrected this. So technology in cars is a good thing we just have to get along with it. the 180 is actually lucky as i remember reading the BFYB and some cars after turning the esp of actually turned themeselves back on in some situations.


    For me i see no point in taking the esp off as i feel it would benifit me in all conditions. unless your on a track!!.

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! Marc's Avatar
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    Jester: Have u ever kicked the esp in on a corner. And by the sounds of this game i reckon you haven't lost a game yet

    Can you straighten something out with esp is it a advancement on traction control.

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    Are you sure you haven't got the ESP to come in whilst cornering on a dry road? As bad_karma can vouch, I got the ESP on his '180 to cut in more times than he would've liked. From the very first corner!
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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