504 - power steering
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  1. #1
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Default 504 - power steering

    I'm planning to fit power steering to my 504, at the moment I'm getting the bits together. So far I have a pump and the recessed timing chain cover. I also need a rack and ram, the triple pulley, and the sway bar links with the stoppers welded to them. I'll also have to get a PS crossmember or drill a ram anchor point hole in the crossmember I already have.

    I've found a PS rack on a 505 SR at Pick-a-part and have almost removed it. The only thing that stopped me was not having the right sized Allen key to undo the steering flector bolts. But I was speaking to Dave McBean on this subject and he said it might be better to get a 604 rack instead, because there is a bush on the passenger side end of the rack that may need replacing, and it's easier to replace on a 604 rack compared to a 505 SR rack.

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    OddfireV6 mentioned this in another thread:

    I've done up a few of these, if the ram is not leaking clean it up and avoid fiddling with it. As a matter of course I rebuild the actuators, as a minimum the oil seals can be replaced and if necessary the bearings, the bottom ones are actually in the rack housing and the top bearing is in the actuator housing, the metal rings in the actuator that look like piston rings can also be replaced. All this said unless you see obvious problems just replace the oil seals. I bought my last set of these seals from European Auto Imports.

    Another possible issue is the left hand rack end bush, as these wear the rack gets clunky. For 504s these were plastic and replaceable I don't think you can buy these for a 505 they are a teflon coated bronze bush, I have in desperation used half a thou sheet around the bush to tighten it slightly.
    Any further opinions on 604 vs. 505 racks? Oddfire, I actually rang you tonight (Monday) to talk about this but you didn't answer the phone... so I thought I'd start a thread here so I can put up any questions as I go.

    Anyone got a 604 rack for sale?

    It might take me a while to get all this done, but I do plan to do it!

    Thanks.
    John

    By the way Odd, are we allowed to call you by name? I think plenty of people know who you are anyway...
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn
    I'm planning to fit power steering to my 504, at the moment I'm getting the bits together. So far I have a pump and the recessed timing chain cover. I also need a rack and ram, the triple pulley, and the sway bar links with the stoppers welded to them. I'll also have to get a PS crossmember or drill a ram anchor point hole in the crossmember I already have.

    I've found a PS rack on a 505 SR at Pick-a-part and have almost removed it. The only thing that stopped me was not having the right sized Allen key to undo the steering flector bolts. But I was speaking to Dave McBean on this subject and he said it might be better to get a 604 rack instead, because there is a bush on the passenger side end of the rack that may need replacing, and it's easier to replace on a 604 rack compared to a 505 SR rack.

    OddfireV6 mentioned this in another thread:



    Any further opinions on 604 vs. 505 racks? Oddfire, I actually rang you tonight (Monday) to talk about this but you didn't answer the phone... so I thought I'd start a thread here so I can put up any questions as I go.

    Anyone got a 604 rack for sale?

    It might take me a while to get all this done, but I do plan to do it!

    Thanks.
    John

    By the way Odd, are we allowed to call you by name? I think plenty of people know who you are anyway...
    505 racks are better because they use ball joints instead of rubber bushes at the rack ends. This gives greater precision to the steering.

    Graham Wallis

  3. #3
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    OK, so we have one vote for the 505 rack. Graham, do you know anything about the bush I mentioned?
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn
    OK, so we have one vote for the 505 rack. Graham, do you know anything about the bush I mentioned?

    This is probably the bush between the housing and the rack.
    I am about to replace it in my GR. As far as I know the manual steering models have a replaceable plastic bush, the power steering ones are non replaceable.
    Maybe Dave is saying that the 604s do have the replaceable bush.
    There is less liklehood of needing to replace this in the power steer racks as they will have less wear due to the power assistance.

    Graham

  5. #5
    Member LynCliff's Avatar
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    Having just completed our latest rally car (504) which is fitted with a rack out of an 81-505 diesel I agree with Graham that It gives better feel than a 604 rack. We did in fact actualy use the complete 505D front end and just shortened the springs one turn to get the front of the car to the right height.
    Have a spare 604 PS crossmember in the yard if you need one.

    Lyncliff

  6. #6
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Maybe Dave is saying that the 604s do have the replaceable bush.
    No, I don't know. All I know is that the 604 rack seems to be designed so it can be pulled apart easier. As such it may be more likely to be in good condition because people are more likely to rebuild it. 604s also tend to have done less kms.

    I've had a bad experience with a 505 STI rack which was very worn because it had been driven a long time with a rattly rack. Scary steering indeed.

    If John can find a verifiable good low mileage 505 rack, then well and good, but I think it would be handy to get some comments from someone experienced in rebuilding boths types of racks before John goes out and buys one or the other.

    It's hard to judge the pinion wear with you're fingers when the rack is out and lying on the ground. When I pulled my 505 rack out this play was almost imperceptable, but it was very evident when driving (the radius of the wheel multplies the feel of the play). I replaced it with a manual rack and all the other components were the same, so the play was definitely in the rack.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I forgot to mention the point that the rubber bushes on the ends of the 604 rack may help slow down the rate of some of the wear on the rack slide bush caused by any road shock.

    This is just a hypothesis. Nothing more. That's why it would be nice to hear from someone who has alot of experience rebuilding racks.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! Phil Whitton's Avatar
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    Just a word of caution: I had a 504 fam ( SA version) with P/S but when the seal at the ram end failed, (.very dramatic: clouds of white smoke in the middle of the shopping centre in town) I had Basil in Melbourne supply, in turn a 505 one and a 604 one.
    Neither fitted as the ram length was fine on LH lock but as the housing was longer, the ram couldn't get back far enough to turn to the right, so I had button turning to the left but three goes at turning right.
    We eventually turned off the clamped seal and machined a collar to cover the end of the housing.
    The 504 was a non service part.

    So suggest getting the dimensions of the housings to compare.

    Hate to see all that work at Picapart go for nought.

    Bon chance
    Phil


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  9. #9
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Just a progress report... progress is slow.

    I now have the steering rack from Pick-a-part. It's pretty grotty but it doesn't seem to be worn to badly - I'm judging this from giving the steering flector (which is still attached) a wriggle. I don't know too much about this but it seems ok to me . I'll give it all a clean up and then see about new seals etc.

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  10. #10
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Another thing I need is 604 sway bar end links, because these have a extra metal plate attached to them to act as a stopper to prevent the steering from turning too far and (I suspect) blowing seals in the ram.

    Anyone have a pair of these they don't need? Or, is there any reason I can't just weld on a stopper to the ones I'm already using?

    Thanks...

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn
    Another thing I need is 604 sway bar end links, because these have a extra metal plate attached to them to act as a stopper to prevent the steering from turning too far and (I suspect) blowing seals in the ram.

    Anyone have a pair of these they don't need? Or, is there any reason I can't just weld on a stopper to the ones I'm already using?

    Thanks...

    John
    Possibly a little unrelated. But when i got new sway bar links for the 504 I could only get the ones with the powersteering stops allready welded on????. I guess this is for 505 pwr steering models???

    Not the case for 604 ones?
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    1975 504 GL

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Default Another part you'll need

    You'll also need a shorter lower half of the steering column.....the power steering sticks up a few more inches. Just undo the 11mm nut and bolt on the universal joint halfway down the steering column....don't have to take off the shroud.....slide it down& through, once you've undone the flector

  13. #13
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Shobbz, all the power steered cars have stoppers on the sway bar end links. The one you have would be off a 604, because 505 items are a different design.

    Beano, thanks for the tip... but I already have the part you mentioned.

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  14. #14
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn
    Shobbz, all the power steered cars have stoppers on the sway bar end links. The one you have would be off a 604, because 505 items are a different design.

    Beano, thanks for the tip... but I already have the part you mentioned.

    John


    let me know if you can't find any as i have a pair of them here or if you don't feel like welding stoppers on what you have
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  15. #15
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Thanks 'Rambo. I'll let you know. I may have to modify my own, because I have a Kmac sway bar on the front, and I think I used the longer rear sway bar end links to get it to fit. If I need the longer links I'll have to modify the ones I have.

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  16. #16
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    I've finally got all the bits I need. I picked up the 604 crossmember tonight, thanks LynCliff. I'll get it cleaned up and I think I'll get it powder-coated black. Then I'll see if I can "remove and replace".

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Ive done a few 604 racks and bushes and stauf as well as a some 505 ones, (thats the s2 ), and for my money I'de o for the 505 one, much better to work with and a better result.

  18. #18
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Glad to hear it, the rack, pump and ram I have are off a 505 SR.
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  19. #19
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    THE 504 is going to a mechanic on Wednesday to have the power steering fitted. I have learnt that, in life, to get things done you have to pay someone to do it. Try to do it yourself and it will never get done.

    That's (mostly) my experience anyway.

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  20. #20
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Anyone know if I definitely do or don't need those stoppers on the sway bar end links? The mechanic, Sam M., seems to think they aren't necessary.

    Thanks...
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! PCOATES505's Avatar
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    We had the plain links on the rally car for a while when we had twin sway bars, didn't seem to make any difference.
    Regards Pete

    I am gunna get another 403 on the road........one day

  22. #22
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Does the rally car have power steering though?
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  23. #23
    Member LynCliff's Avatar
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    Yes it has, It,s fitted with a 505 rack and pump with 505 Sti struts.
    I don,t think they are there to stop the ram going to it,s extremity,s anyway as the pump has a relief valve to limit pressure when the steering is on it,s limits.
    The only problems so far have been braking the high pressure hose fitting at the flare on the pump (twice!!)(505 type), changed it to a 604 fitting and hose and it now seems o/k.

    Lyncliff

  24. #24
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LynCliff
    The only problems so far have been braking the high pressure hose fitting at the flare on the pump (twice!!)(505 type), changed it to a 604 fitting and hose and it now seems o/k.

    Lyncliff
    Did this happen during rallies?

    BTW the crossmember came up great after it was bead blasted and powder coated. Thanks for that.

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  25. #25
    Member LynCliff's Avatar
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    We broke the first fitting at the end of the first rally we drove it in but had finished by the time it ran out of oil. We fitted another pipe and broke it just driving it for testing purposes. Have done two more rallies since fitting the 604 hose with no more probs.
    I don,t blame the type of fitting for this though, just the way we had the pipe routed back from the pump along the motor. The pump is fitted where the alternator normaly sits and the hose was extended by crimping the old fittings to new HP hose (heavy).
    The standard hose (505) works ok when the pumps underneath the motor as on SR,s and have only ever blown the hose not broken the fitting,s.

    Lyncliff

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