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Thread: 504 Questions?

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Default 504 Questions?

    Hi all,

    Had a great day today. First chance I've had to get under the bonnet of my '77 504 since buying it 6 weeks ago. Spent the whole day having a good sticky to see what is there and what is not etc. Pulled out the remains of an electronic ignition system. (MSD control unit - anyone interested in it? No ideal if it is any good or not). New plugs, new points, dwell checked, timing adjusted and oil change in engine and gearbox. Certainly going OK and revving freely. However a few questions:

    1) PCV valve missing and plumbing in crankcase ventilation system a mess. A hose straight from oil filler cap to air intake line (before the Carby) with no valve in place. The three way junction above filler cap non-existent and the return to inlet manifold cut off and sealed. How is this going to effect engine performance? Do I need to worry about this?

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    2) Engine backfiring upon de-acceleration. What causes this?

    3) Some blue smoke returning through the oil filler cap opening when the cover is off and revving the engine. Does this means rings are shot?

    4) The small cylinder (about 8 cm high and 4cm in diameter approx) mounted on the firewall at centre and has at one stage had three hoses connected. Now two cut off and the third dangling. What is this thing and what does it do? Do I need to worry about it?

    5) Can you still get hold of long tube spanners for the spark plugs? Where do you get them?

    Comments appreciated.

    Peter J.
    PJ

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Hi all,

    Had a great day today. First chance I've had to get under the bonnet of my '77 504 since buying it 6 weeks ago. Spent the whole day having a good sticky to see what is there and what is not etc. Pulled out the remains of an electronic ignition system. (MSD control unit - anyone interested in it? No ideal if it is any good or not). New plugs, new points, dwell checked, timing adjusted and oil change in engine and gearbox. Certainly going OK and revving freely. However a few questions:

    1) PCV valve missing and plumbing in crankcase ventilation system a mess. A hose straight from oil filler cap to air intake line (before the Carby) with no valve in place. The three way junction above filler cap non-existent and the return to inlet manifold cut off and sealed. How is this going to effect engine performance? Do I need to worry about this?

    2) Engine backfiring upon de-acceleration. What causes this?

    3) Some blue smoke returning through the oil filler cap opening when the cover is off and revving the engine. Does this means rings are shot?

    4) The small cylinder (about 8 cm high and 4cm in diameter approx) mounted on the firewall at centre and has at one stage had three hoses connected. Now two cut off and the third dangling. What is this thing and what does it do? Do I need to worry about it?

    5) Can you still get hold of long tube spanners for the spark plugs? Where do you get them?

    Comments appreciated.

    Peter J.

    The PCV stuff shouldn't matter a lot as long as there are no air leaks and the sump is vented somewhere.
    Back firing could be caused by leaks in the exhaust.
    Yes smoke from the filler cap indicates blowby and worn rings.
    The cylinder on the fire wall sounds like the fuel filter for the injection model, could this be a converted TI?
    Don't know where you could buy a long tube spanner, I've always had plenty so no need to look!

    Graham Wallis

  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Or is it the charcoal canister?

    Does one tube (clear plastic, hard, brittle...) come through the firewall?

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Thanks Ray and Graham,

    No it is not the charcoal cannister, much smaller than that and metal. I will post a photo. Not a TI conversion as I have had previous Carby 504's with this cylinder. Didn't know what it was then either!

    Also post photo of carby as haven't worked that out yet either.

    Is it worthwhile just replacing rings and main bearings. I really can't afford the expense of bore liners, new pistons and big end replacement at the moment but probably could stretch it to a set of rings and main bearings. I guess the answer going to be that probably find pistons and bores worn when pulled apart anyway? No blue smoke from the exhaust just a tinge from the oil filler cap when it is removed and engine at speed. To be expected with age.

    Peter J.
    PJ

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Thanks Ray and Graham,

    No it is not the charcoal cannister, much smaller than that and metal. I will post a photo. Not a TI conversion as I have had previous Carby 504's with this cylinder. Didn't know what it was then either!

    Also post photo of carby as haven't worked that out yet either.

    Is it worthwhile just replacing rings and main bearings. I really can't afford the expense of bore liners, new pistons and big end replacement at the moment but probably could stretch it to a set of rings and main bearings. I guess the answer going to be that probably find pistons and bores worn when pulled apart anyway? No blue smoke from the exhaust just a tinge from the oil filler cap when it is removed and engine at speed. To be expected with age.

    Peter J.

    Don't worry about the blow by if it is not causing you problems.
    Why would you replace the main bearings?
    You have to pull the crankshaft out to do this whereas the big ends are on the end of the con rods and could/should be replaced when you have the pistons out.


    Graham

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Thanks Graham,

    The blow by is not causing me problems but I was thinking that it may avoid future deterioration to remedy the issue now and perhaps avoid further piston and bore wear?

    Sorry, I meant big end bearings not main bearings.

    Peter J.
    PJ

  7. #7
    Member LynCliff's Avatar
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    I would hazard a guess to say the metal thing is part of the pollution gear thats been disconnected
    Lyncliff

  8. #8
    nJm
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    My 505 GR has something similar to that metal cylinder with 3 hoses coming out of it, although mine is mounted next to the coil, on the LHS strut tower. All the hoses have been blocked off by the previous owner. I believe it is part of the anti-polution system.

    As for the PCV, I thought these cars didn't have a valve. You have a hose coming from the crank case to the oil filler cap, and another one going from there to the air filter. Just make sure the hoses aren't blocked and that the 'port' on the crankcase it attaches to isn't also blocked and it should be working ok. I had some blow-by in my 505 (same engine as your 504) and discovered the hose going from the crank-case to oil filler cap was full of solid gunk, and so brittle it would just snap into pieces. Replaced it and replaced the gauze filters in the oil filler and all is good!


    As for back-firing, that's just timing isn't it? Set it to the standard (8 degrees??) and run it on premium unleaded petrol to prevent pinging. Being a 504 you might need some kind of additive to stop your valve seats degrading.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  9. #9
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    Default Can you still get hold of long tube spanners for the spark plugs? Where do you get th

    I got so annoyed with mucking about with pliers, extension bars and generally fiddling about trying to remove the plugs on my 504 that I went to the Peugeot dealers and bought a proper Peugeot plug spanner ($20.00).
    It looked great, it had Peugeot stamped all over it but it was too fat to fit down the damned hole, I took it back and had to show the guys at Peugeot before they would believe it wouldn't fit.
    I ended up buying two tube spanners (two sizes on each spanner) from the local tool shop (about $7.00 each), one fits the spark plug and the other one fits inside the other end of it.
    They work great and have come in very handy for other jobs like lawnmower and chainsaw plugs.

    I don't know what that cannister is either.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    Here a two photos of that cannister. Any ideas?

    Peter J.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 504 Questions?-107_0730.jpg   504 Questions?-107_0731.jpg  
    PJ

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Hi all,

    Here a two photos of that cannister. Any ideas?

    Peter J.

    something to do with the EGR from memory

    you can run without it and it will cause no ill effects if you do

    604's also had this thing on them as well and i can pretty much guarrantee that 99% of them running around today won't have that still on them

    in fact pretty much every 604 still running around will have little to none of the original pollution gear left on them
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Thanks Pugrambo,

    I need to a blue slip shortly. Do they check if that pollution gear is operational? Do they take emission readings of any sort?

    Peter J.
    PJ

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Thanks Pugrambo,

    I need to a blue slip shortly. Do they check if that pollution gear is operational? Do they take emission readings of any sort?

    Peter J.

    take it off and make sure everything looks tidy

    if it is there they will expect it to work but if it isn't they wouldn't know it was ever there unless they really know what they are looking at

    i never had an emissions test for the 604 i got blue slipped at the end of last year and it only has the charcoal canister left on it

    it has a weber on it and i put a standard 604 air cleaner on the top of it and the bloke never knew the difference

    if he ran his hand under the exhaust manifold he would have found the old EGR pipe still sitting there but blanked off but he didn't and he even put the car up on the hoist the check things out and still didn't even notice the pipe there but the engine bay was tidied up, but not too tidy to make someone think that there was something removed if you can understand what i am saying
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Peter J's Avatar
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    Thanks Pugrambo,

    That's encouraging. Hope I can find suitable blue slip provider. The car will not have standard air cleaner on it so may give rise to soem questions?

    Does EGR stand for Exhaust Gas Return? Mine has that same pipe sealed off about two inches out of the manifold. Does it run into that little cannister which provides some reading of unburnt petrol air mixture and then adjust the mixture in the carby? Getting a little worried about the blue slip and this pollution gear as the carby appears to be non-standard so it would be a long way back to get all pollution gear up and running again if I need to do that?

    Do the Australian built 504's have that "Coppolair" system on them as per the Haynes manual? (Electro valve, Electronic control box, gearbox sensor) all operating the carby throttle on de-acceleration. If so all is missing on my machine.

    Peter J.
    PJ

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J
    Thanks Pugrambo,

    That's encouraging. Hope I can find suitable blue slip provider. The car will not have standard air cleaner on it so may give rise to soem questions?

    Does EGR stand for Exhaust Gas Return? Mine has that same pipe sealed off about two inches out of the manifold. Does it run into that little cannister which provides some reading of unburnt petrol air mixture and then adjust the mixture in the carby? Getting a little worried about the blue slip and this pollution gear as the carby appears to be non-standard so it would be a long way back to get all pollution gear up and running again if I need to do that?

    Do the Australian built 504's have that "Coppolair" system on them as per the Haynes manual? (Electro valve, Electronic control box, gearbox sensor) all operating the carby throttle on de-acceleration. If so all is missing on my machine.

    Peter J.

    EGR = Exhaust Gas Recirculation.
    The canister is not directly part of this system.
    From the exhaust mainfold exhaust gases are fed back via a stainless steel pipe to the EGR valve which is controlled by manifold vacuum. From here the gases are fed into the inlet manifold, generally only under conditions of high manifold vacuum. If the EGR valve sticks open this can produce extreme lean mixtures and lack of power.
    Sounds like you may be in a bit of trouble re the blue slip.
    Maybe you could fit a pre 1976 compliance plate?
    The Australian cars don't have the Coppolair system that you describe.

    Graham Wallis

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! jarrods's Avatar
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    Default Make your own spark plug tube spanner

    With reguards to your spark plug spanner here are two more options. You need the correct type of spanner so that the spring or spark plug extension tube can go up the centre of the spanner. Normal spark plug sockets dont fit.

    1) Cheap and easy
    Get a piece of thin wall pipe about 300mm long that just fits into the spark plug tubes. Get an old spark plug and heat the end of the pipe up. Force the spark plug into the end pipe using a gentle persuader of your choice. (best method is to slightly chamfer hex on spark plug at lead end and then clamp in vice. then force hot tube onto sparkplug) You should end up with a nicely formed hex in the end of the pipe. Drill a 6 or 8 mm hole thru the pipe at the other end so you can use a screw driver as a lever. This might sound dodgy but it is all you need as spark plugs that a regularly maintained should not be that tight and if you use two much force you will damage the head.

    2) Deluxe
    Buy a spark plug socket an cut it in half. Weld each of the halves onto the end of a 300mm piece of thin wall pipe the same diameter as the outside of the spark plug socket. Your welds will have to be ground flat as if you increase the size too much it will not fit down the tube

    I have had one of both of the above spanners for about 15 years and thay both work great. They are very easy to make and should be well within the capabilty of person doing their own maintenance on their car.

    Jarrods

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