alignment? warped chassis? mi16
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! enthused!'s Avatar
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    Icon4 alignment? warped chassis? mi16

    Howdy.

    found a nail in my front tyre.. no probs - chucked on the spare (havent yet had time to get the nailed one fixed).

    Problem:

    When i first put the spare on, I didnt have time to stuff about, so i put the spare on the front (replacint the flat). now i know you should never put 2 different tyres on the driven axles of any car, i just didnt have time to stuff about. so... I noticed with the spare, that the car seems to be pulling a little to one side, or more so, that the wheel isnt straight when the car is, and the steering feels awfully light when trying to go straight - its all floaty and vague.

    this morning before work, i rotated my tyres (still havent had time to get the spare fixed, so put the 2 back tyres on the front (same tyres - lm702s) and put 1 702 on the back along with my spare (pirelli p6000(7000 maybe?? not sure))... now the steering is noticibly not straight, the wheel is maybe 20 degrees to the right when car going straight, and its still very light and doesnt want to "pull" to straight properly.

    any suggestions??

    is this all alignment or is it something simpler or (please no) worse???

    any suggestions would be appreciated.

    cheers.

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    1992 mi16 1.9 litre - it's a love hate realtionship.

    whatever you do NEVER tell anyone your car is reliable. doesn't matter how much wood you touch!

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  2. #2
    Banned orestes's Avatar
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    i would say it would be alignment more then anything else as a first guess... did you bother to do a half decent home wheel alignment when you put the spare on properly when you got home... or did you just rotate them and leave it as it was... i'd say more then anything your wheels wouldn't be aligned
    Last edited by orestes; 29th July 2004 at 02:26 PM.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! enthused!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    did you bother to do a half decent home wheel alignment when you put the spare on
    home wheel alignment???

    I didnt really think there was much i could do other than put the wheel on the hub and re-insert 4 bolts???
    1992 mi16 1.9 litre - it's a love hate realtionship.

    whatever you do NEVER tell anyone your car is reliable. doesn't matter how much wood you touch!

    previous cars: peugeot 306xt, peugeot 205si, renault 20, renault 12 - sedan and wagon, renault 25, alfa 155 twin spark

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    Banned orestes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enthused!
    home wheel alignment???

    I didnt really think there was much i could do other than put the wheel on the hub and re-insert 4 bolts???
    you can measure it out and aligh it yourself... its not imposible to do... and i have seen it done before.... its not acurate but you can align your own wheels... if you've just bolted the wheels back on i'm pretty sure you woiuld have wheel alignment problems... just go and get a wheel alignment and go from there

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! MR604's Avatar
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    Check your tyre pressures before you start messing around with the wheel alignment.

    When you get your puncture repaired get them to check your alignment then.

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    you can measure it out and aligh it yourself... its not imposible to do... and i have seen it done before.... its not acurate but you can align your own wheels... if you've just bolted the wheels back on i'm pretty sure you woiuld have wheel alignment problems... just go and get a wheel alignment and go from there
    Hey, orestes, I love the way you pretend it's a normal part of changing the spare to do a quick home wheel alignment! Actually, it IS accurate if you know what you're doing...but it's not something you'd do in five minutes while you're changing the spare over.

    enthused!, was the car pulling before you changed the wheel? From what you've said, it seems not. Given that it's still pulling with the spare on the back, it sounds like:

    (a) tyre pressures are different side to side, as mentioned by 2pugs; or
    (b) the alignment is actually out, and your tyre pressures were different before you got the puncture, masking the alignment problem.

    Assuming no brake issues, etc...

    Stuey

  7. #7
    Banned orestes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    Hey, orestes, I love the way you pretend it's a normal part of changing the spare to do a quick home wheel alignment! Actually, it IS accurate if you know what you're doing...but it's not something you'd do in five minutes while you're changing the spare over.

    enthused!, was the car pulling before you changed the wheel? From what you've said, it seems not. Given that it's still pulling with the spare on the back, it sounds like:

    (a) tyre pressures are different side to side, as mentioned by 2pugs; or
    (b) the alignment is actually out, and your tyre pressures were different before you got the puncture, masking the alignment problem.

    Assuming no brake issues, etc...

    Stuey
    i didnt say that stuey i just said that its more then likely that the wheels were out of alignment... and putting wheels on at the same time as it is out of line alignmenting isn't going to be a good idea and that its probably a good idea to try to do a half decent wheel alignment... and note i said it would probably be a good thing to do whilst rotating the tyres... if i said something along the lines of do a wheel alignment on the side of the road then it was completely unintentional and its not something that i would reccomend.... also note a wheel alignment done at home even on a flat surface is never as acurate as if its done properly
    Last edited by orestes; 30th July 2004 at 12:51 AM.

  8. #8
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    My guess is that the wheel alignment was out to start with or alternatively the spare was used previously on a wheel side that was.
    The face of the tyre was either worn on one side due to misalignment and then when put on the car was running on only a % of the tread face or alternatively the tyre was OK and the alignment is out and hence is causing it to pull.
    I'd suggest a wheel alignment but be sure to check the specs out on the service manual before you just wander in somewhere to get it done. On the Citroen forum there's a couple of guys on there that have just been wised up to the fact that BX16Vs are set toe out no toe in and as a lot of wheel alignment joints set all cars to the same setting or nearabouts at around 0 - 3 degrees toe in, you could still end up with things not quite right.


    Alan S
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  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! enthused!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    My guess is that the wheel alignment was out to start with or alternatively the spare was used previously on a wheel side that was.
    The face of the tyre was either worn on one side due to misalignment and then when put on the car was running on only a % of the tread face or alternatively the tyre was OK and the alignment is out and hence is causing it to pull.
    I'd suggest a wheel alignment but be sure to check the specs out on the service manual before you just wander in somewhere to get it done. On the Citroen forum there's a couple of guys on there that have just been wised up to the fact that BX16Vs are set toe out no toe in and as a lot of wheel alignment joints set all cars to the same setting or nearabouts at around 0 - 3 degrees toe in, you could still end up with things not quite right.


    Alan S
    thanks alan, i think you may be closer to the mark unfortunatley. I got the tyre fixed this morning (and a screw pulled out of one of the other tyres! grrrr). And whilst its better, the wheel is still not straight when the car is, i will get an alignment done.

    Its a bit funny though, I had an alignment done when i got these tyres, less than 12 months ago, and it was all wrong, i got it fixed elsewhere. But i remember my first car (9 years ago) I had troubles getting an alignment done as it had non-standard rims and tyres so the alignment people couldnt find the right data in their computer. 9 years later, everywhere you go everyone just sets the alignment to whatever they want???? how is it that almost 10 years ago they used computers and now they rely on their own judgement??

    bit backwards init??
    1992 mi16 1.9 litre - it's a love hate realtionship.

    whatever you do NEVER tell anyone your car is reliable. doesn't matter how much wood you touch!

    previous cars: peugeot 306xt, peugeot 205si, renault 20, renault 12 - sedan and wagon, renault 25, alfa 155 twin spark

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! enthused!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    enthused!, was the car pulling before you changed the wheel? From what you've said, it seems not. Given that it's still pulling with the spare on the back, it sounds like:

    (a) tyre pressures are different side to side, as mentioned by 2pugs; or
    (b) the alignment is actually out, and your tyre pressures were different before you got the puncture, masking the alignment problem.

    Assuming no brake issues, etc...

    Stuey
    Stuey,

    it was ok before...

    The only thing that worries me (and this is why i mentioned a bent chassis in my original post) is that since i got the car, i have noticed it doesnt feel quite right when coming to a stop - its hard to explain, but ill have a go...

    when coming to a gentle stop, and easing off the brakes as you slow down - you know that little sort of "bob" that the car does when it comes to a complete stop? - when it does that, it often feels like the front right and rear left tyres (opposite corners) are planted firmly, but either the front left and rear left just seem to move a little more, the car seems to rock ever so slightly between them...

    very hard to explain... but its just... you know how in a pug you can "feel" what the car is doing?? well sometimes to me it feels like the front left and rear right wheels are slightly higher than the other two...

    does any of that make sense???

    think of it like being a 4-legged coffee table. It needs a coaster under one leg. thats what it feels like sometimes.
    1992 mi16 1.9 litre - it's a love hate realtionship.

    whatever you do NEVER tell anyone your car is reliable. doesn't matter how much wood you touch!

    previous cars: peugeot 306xt, peugeot 205si, renault 20, renault 12 - sedan and wagon, renault 25, alfa 155 twin spark

  11. #11
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    If you can get hold of the algnment specs (2 degrees toe out on a BX 16V - don't know if the Mi16 is the same) and have a look at the Citroen forum here on aussiefrogs and do a search.
    You'll find a thread that I think was to do with "george1/8th" doing a steering rack job on a CX where we discussed a home DIY wheel alignment.
    It gets a bit complicated to write down but is shiteasy to do in fact I always do my own; costs nothing but time and is far more accurate than some grease monkey up a back ally who spends more time writing the bill than getting it right.
    If you search "all postings" by I think it's "RobT" he gave a detailed description of it on that thread, and if you read the thread you'll soon work it out.
    There's been a couple of others on here who have also done it following that thread and to my knowledge, nobody found it hard and in one case, the guy reckoned his car felt the best it ever had after he did it himself.

    Check this from posting #19 onwards; I think this is the thread I referred to before.

    Citroen CX Steering Rack restoration.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! enthused!'s Avatar
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    thanks again Alan..

    just to clarify though... if i have a go at home wheel alignment (ive got the haynes manual and the original handbook, so should have the right specs somewhere), say its meant to have toe-in of 4mm - does that mean that the deviation from straight is 4mm, measured form the front of the tyre to the back of the tyre.

    Is that 4mm (8mm in total) for each wheel or 4mm overall??

    also - where do i actually make the adjustment?

    also - can i adjust the steering-wheel centering as well?? and how?

    would this diagram be correct???
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    1992 mi16 1.9 litre - it's a love hate realtionship.

    whatever you do NEVER tell anyone your car is reliable. doesn't matter how much wood you touch!

    previous cars: peugeot 306xt, peugeot 205si, renault 20, renault 12 - sedan and wagon, renault 25, alfa 155 twin spark

  13. #13
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    You pretty well got it.
    Toe-in = measure between rear of front wheels less 4mm at the front.

    Toe-out = measure between the rear of front wheels plus 4 mm. at the front.

    Adjust by screwing tie-rods in or out. This can be done one of two ways; either slackening locknuts or (in the case of some Cits, clamps) and turning actual rods. Otherwise, remove tapered shaft attached to balljoint from it's hole at the hub, slacken locknut and screw in or out.
    Steering wheel can be done in one of two ways.
    Correct way; screwing one tie rod inwards and the opposite one outwards so the road wheels and steering wheel are both in the straight ahead position. This is time consuming but this is how you do it properly.
    Option #2; (From the "Dodgy repairers guide to shonky practices") Commonly used by tyre companies; The steering wheel often has a removeable centre piece. Once removed, it reveals the nut that holds the steering wheel in place. Remove this nut, give the steering wheel a jolting tug and it should come off in your hand. This will reveal a splined shaft. Be sure the road wheels are dead straight and refit the steering wheel in the straight ahead position. On a Cit (and possibly a Pug) they also have a connection under the steering wheel shroud that contains another spline; if the wheel is creaking & squeaking when refitted, chances are this one has slipped a fraction allowing the wheel to sit about 2mm too low. Easy to fix by slackening, pulling & retightening.
    The reason this is commonly used is of course because it's the simplest option. The only downside to it is that in the case of this being continuously adjusted this way, it can lead eventually to a slight variance in left hand & right hand turning circles as it has an effect of the actual lock in one direction.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! enthused!'s Avatar
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    alan..

    ill be giving it a go this weekend.
    1992 mi16 1.9 litre - it's a love hate realtionship.

    whatever you do NEVER tell anyone your car is reliable. doesn't matter how much wood you touch!

    previous cars: peugeot 306xt, peugeot 205si, renault 20, renault 12 - sedan and wagon, renault 25, alfa 155 twin spark

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by enthused!
    Stuey,

    when it does that, it often feels like the front right and rear left tyres (opposite corners) are planted firmly, but either the front left and rear left just seem to move a little more, the car seems to rock ever so slightly between them...
    One or more dud shockers on opposite corners of the car?? Stuffed suspension bushes/ strut bearings??

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! MadBiker's Avatar
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    Oh for FS...

    tyres wear in, if you put wheels that are normaly use to going strait ahead on a turnign wheen and vis versa then the tyres will need to wear in.. makes cars feel hell different, thats all it is.

    When ya put new tyres on a car you go oh thats different..

    have a look at the front tyres, see if they are wearing evenly, no low poitns on inside or outsides. sure check your tyre pressure's though.

    Next thing is make sure the tyres are all the same size...

    pay the 3 bucks and get that tyre fixed and put it back on, is it going strait now?

    cheers
    Nat
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