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  1. #1
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    Default Just brought a 505 STi...

    Hi,
    Just brought a 505 STi (after being a proud owner of a 504 for many years). Now I want to know, is it worth it upgrading the 2.2l i4 for the 2.4l V6? Or what engine mods (performance wise) do you recommend for the 2.2l i4?

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    I'm not looking to make this an insane peformance car, but I would like something more than the 84Kw that the stock motor provides

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armunn
    Hi,
    Just brought a 505 STi (after being a proud owner of a 504 for many years). Now I want to know, is it worth it upgrading the 2.2l i4 for the 2.4l V6? Or what engine mods (performance wise) do you recommend for the 2.2l i4?

    I'm not looking to make this an insane peformance car, but I would like something more than the 84Kw that the stock motor provides

    just one question

    what engine are you going to be using as there isn't a 2.4L V6 as far as i know
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    if you wanted to go whole hog theres two paths i'd reccomend and have had a little bit of a look into one of them but haven't looked into the other... that is either the 3.0l 24v v6 you would have to import and that makes roughly 180hp stock or a 505 turbo engine... there has been a few of these for sale in australia but you would most likely have to import one in... i'm not sure on the exact specifics of the turbo setup and/or how much power it makes... if you didnt want to go that far there are also plenty of v6's in australia(no 3l's baring imports) but if you do choose to go the path of the 6 you are going to be in a spot of bother when it comes to adapting a manual gearbox to it, as you will need to find somebody that can make a bellhousing for you as well as a suitable flywheel... either way though if you were going to stick with the automatic the GM trimatic is quite a nice auto and im some variations is whats generally used for drag cars... either way if you search the forum you will find a ton of information on the v6's and what is nescary to adapt one to your car... whilst i am here may also sugest considering an easier engine and gearbox conversion such as sticking with a 4 cylinder engine, you may find that you will end up making just as much power out of a PRV V6 as you do out of a series 2 505 GTI engine... if you can get your hands on one... and you will save on insurance,registration and fuel consumption... allthough if you still want the 6 after haveing a fairly decent look into things my self and considering some things as i could have goten my hands on a v6 out of a 604 and was looking into this myself and talking to a few people on here i pretty much came to the conclusin that a 4 cylinder conversion would be a lot easier then a v6 that said however the 505 came in v6 models and turbo models so the major issue that you have to deal with is the transmision if you go the path of the v6 the rest of it desn't apear to be dificult... i am not sure on the specifics of the 505 turbo but i can asume that the engine would pretty much fit straight in and bolt up to your gearbox

    you may also like to talk to somone like oddfirev6 or pugrambo about this as they have both performed this engine and transmision conversion
    Last edited by orestes; 23rd July 2004 at 09:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    just one question

    what engine are you going to be using as there isn't a 2.4L V6 as far as i know
    I got the size wrong *hit self on head for being stupid* It'll be any Peugeot V6 that came in the 505 or 604.

    So the standard 5speed won't fit the V6, because that's what is in it now. If not then I'll have to hunt down a bell housing for one if I go ahead. But yeah I'll also dig through this forum about the 4.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armunn
    I got the size wrong *hit self on head for being stupid* It'll be any Peugeot V6 that came in the 505 or 604.

    So the standard 5speed won't fit the V6, because that's what is in it now. If not then I'll have to hunt down a bell housing for one if I go ahead. But yeah I'll also dig through this forum about the 4.

    you will need a BA10 box instead on the BA7 you already have then you have to hunt down a flywheel and bell housing which are made from unobtanium

    your best bet to save trouble would be to stick with the 2.2 douvrin engine already in the car unless you fall upon the parts to put the V6 in bearing in mind the V6 in a 505 has to be mounted forward around 15-20mm to clear the A/C fan on the firewall

    you may be able to adapt a bell housing to suit but seeing as peugeot onnly fitted BA7's to the 2.2's you will have to modify the existing one to mount the BA10 to it unless you get a bell housing from a turbo 505 or a talbot (both of which are as rare as rocking horse manure in this country)
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

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    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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    pugrambo and everyone else, thanks for your input. So what can be done to the 2.2 to make it a little warmer or isn't it worth doing any performance mods to that?

    I'm not after massive amounts of details just what can be done without going massively overboard (such as putting an SR20 in it *grins*)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armunn
    pugrambo and everyone else, thanks for your input. So what can be done to the 2.2 to make it a little warmer or isn't it worth doing any performance mods to that?

    I'm not after massive amounts of details just what can be done without going massively overboard (such as putting an SR20 in it *grins*)
    These engines vary a lot but the GTIs are generally better than the STIs.
    If you were to get a GTI engine (L Jetronic, not the mechanical K Jetronic as fitted to the STI) and fit an aftermarket programmable ECU this would be about as good as you could get.

    Gaham Wallis

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    Danielson in France managed to get 135 horsepower out of the 2.2 Douvrin motor, using a special cam, exhaust and modified head. You can see pics at:

    http://membres.lycos.fr/cit43/Autosh..._Danielson.htm

    As Graham said, they are better if fitted with EFI. The early GTI camshaft (1985 leaded version) gives revier engine characteristics than the low down torque biased type camshaft which is fitted to the STI and unleaded GTI.

    Fitting a 12V R21 head would be the ultimate modification to one of these motors, but they were never sold here.

    The biggest things which let these 2.2 Douvrin motors down are the poor conrod length to stroke ratio and the poor placement of the starter motor.

    Dave
    Last edited by davemcbean; 22nd July 2004 at 11:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean
    Danielson in France managed to get 135 horsepower out of the 2.2 Douvrin motor, using a special cam, exhaust and modified head. You can see pics at:

    http://membres.lycos.fr/cit43/Autosh..._Danielson.htm

    As Graham said, they are better if fitted with EFI. The early GTI camshaft (1985 leaded version) gives revier engine characteristics than the low down torque biased type camshaft which is fitted to the STI and unleaded GTI.

    Fitting a 12V R21 head would be the ultimate modification to one of these motors, but they were never sold here.

    The biggest things which let these 2.2 Douvrin motors down are the poor conrod length to stroke ratio and the poor placement of the starter motor.

    Dave

    The GTI was rated at 130 hp STANDARD so that proves the point about the EFI motors being better.

    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    The GTI was rated at 130 hp STANDARD
    The 130hp (97kW) rating only applies to European spec GTIs with 9.8 compression, revier camshaft and left hand drive exhaust manifold.

    The Australian 1985 leaded GTI got the first two, but had the more restrictive RHD exhaust manifold. It was rated at 94kW, but often felt less.

    The unleaded GTI dropped in compression down to 8.8:1 and went back to the STI camshaft and basically went back to near STI power levels (88kW)

    Dave
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    There's another engine option for hotting up RWD pugs. An Mi16 engine will join up to a BA10 gearbox using the Mi16 bellhousing.

    You can get the Mi16 engine capacity up to between 2.1 and 2.2 litres by using the 2 litre cast iron Mi16 block, bored slightly, combined with the longer stroke crankshaft of the 1.9 litre alloy block Mi16.

    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean
    The 130hp (97kW) rating only applies to European spec GTIs with 9.8 compression, revier camshaft and left hand drive exhaust manifold.

    The Australian 1985 leaded GTI got the first two, but had the more restrictive RHD exhaust manifold. It was rated at 94kW, but often felt less.

    The unleaded GTI dropped in compression down to 8.8:1 and went back to the STI camshaft and basically went back to near STI power levels (88kW)

    Dave
    The 130 HP figure got me thinking, I am about to put something together for my 505 GR (now that the 404 is gone) and was going to electronically inject an XN2 with SLI manifold and Megasquirt ECU (currently on order from the US).
    I would be lucky to get anything more than 120 from this, even 125 for the stock local GTI is better.
    While most of these engines are very unimpressive you get the occasional one that goes well. The programmable ECU and removal of the early style pollution control equipment should remove whatever the impediment is and give a little more besides.
    The car would just squeeze into the CAMS pre 1980 PRC regulations and therefore be eligible for HRA events.
    Might be the way to go?

    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    While most of these (GTI) engines are very unimpressive you get the occasional one that goes well. The programmable ECU and removal of the early style pollution control equipment should remove whatever the impediment is and give a little more besides.
    The car would just squeeze into the CAMS pre 1980 PRC regulations and therefore be eligible for HRA events.
    Might be the way to go?
    Yeah, if you did that PLUS managed to fit an exhaust manifold like the LHD or Renault Feugo one, you should in theory be able to get it up above 130hp. You might even be able to get an exhaust shop to copy the Douvrin extractors in the picture in the link I posted yesterday.

    Isn't fitting a 2.2 and EFI a bit cheeky for a pre-1980 class?

    A 2 litre Douvrin motor will rev better and I've heard they go really well with twin DCOE Webers (170hp in road cars, 200hp in racing cars). I think David Cavanagh has the Weber manifolds in stock.

    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean
    Yeah, if you did that PLUS managed to fit an exhaust manifold like the LHD or Renault Feugo one, you should in theory be able to get it up above 130hp. You might even be able to get an exhaust shop to copy the Douvrin extractors in the picture in the link I posted yesterday.

    Isn't fitting a 2.2 and EFI a bit cheeky for a pre-1980 class?

    A 2 litre Douvrin motor will rev better and I've heard they go really well with twin DCOE Webers (170hp in road cars, 200hp in racing cars). I think David Cavanagh has the Weber manifolds in stock.

    Dave

    There is/was a thread on the parts section with Dellortos to suit Fuego for around $300 IIRC. I think there would be a better torque spread with injection though and cheaper as the motor already has injection, just add the $140 US ECU. I can also source a 2 litre motor, maybe a highly modified one of these could be the go later on.
    The STI was pre 1980, inlet system is free, just the little matter of a slightly different block!
    This isn't really a class, just that pre 1980 spec cars that comply with PRC rules are allowed to enter HRA events.

    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    The 130 HP figure got me thinking, I am about to put something together for my 505 GR (now that the 404 is gone) and was going to electronically inject an XN2 with SLI manifold and Megasquirt ECU (currently on order from the US).
    I would be lucky to get anything more than 120 from this, even 125 for the stock local GTI is better.
    While most of these engines are very unimpressive you get the occasional one that goes well. The programmable ECU and removal of the early style pollution control equipment should remove whatever the impediment is and give a little more besides.
    The car would just squeeze into the CAMS pre 1980 PRC regulations and therefore be eligible for HRA events.
    Might be the way to go?

    Graham

    I've spent a fair amount of time today looking at road test figures and the 2 litre Douvrin has a 0-400m time of 17.5 seconds. This is only slightly better than the 504 TI which does 17.7 with a higher diff ratio.
    The European spec GTI does it in 17 seconds and 0-100km in 10 seconds with the same ratio as the 504 (3.89).
    It seems like it is worth it, if I can get the same power as the Euro motor with the help of the programmable ECU then it should do high 16s when coupled to the 4.11 diff of the GR.
    The power band is somwhat narrower on the Douvrin motors compared to the XN, one of the reasons that they feel dissapointing on the road. This shouldn't matter so much for competition use where higher revs are being used and hopefully the programmable mixture capability can improve on this.

    Some queries about weight though, does anyone know why the STI/GTI cars are always stated as being heavier than the GR/SR when the engines are supposed to be lighter.
    When I put a 2 litre STI into my GR some years back the car definitely handled better although the ride height stayed the same. Maybe the distribution of weight was better?
    Certainly the STI/GTI feel much crisper in their handling and I don't think it is entirely due to the power steering and negative camber.

    Graham
    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 24th July 2004 at 10:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    Some queries about weight though, does anyone know why the STI/GTI cars are always stated as being heavier than the GR/SR when the engines are supposed to be lighter.
    It's because alot of the quotes mix up the figures with the lower specced European GR which had no aircon, little sound proofing and came standard with a 4 speed box.

    The actual weight of the GR with 5 speed, aircon, sound proofing and other standard equipment which Australian cars had is around 1265kg without power steering and with 55litre fuel tank, whereas the GTI is about the same with power steering and 62 litre fuel tank and possibly a sunroof aswell.

    Peugeot quotes the power steering as being 10kg worth. A sunroof adds 15kg.

    Peugeot also quote the Douvrin motor as being 15kg lighter than the pushrod motor in stripped form and 5kg lighter when fitted with ancillaries and the mechanical K-jetronic system (which is heavier than the L-jetronic system).

    I guess it also (slightly) helps that the Douvrin motor is slightly shorter, so less of it hangs in front of the cross member.

    Dave
    Last edited by davemcbean; 25th July 2004 at 11:54 AM.
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    Here's a picture of the parts included in the 135hp Danielson kit for the 2.2 litre version of the 505 STI:

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    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

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    nJm
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    Dave, my '83 Australian spec GR has almost no sound-proofing. There is no underbonnet insulation like the GTi's, and nothing in the doors either.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

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    Quote Originally Posted by nJm
    Dave, my '83 Australian spec GR has almost no sound-proofing. There is no underbonnet insulation like the GTi's, and nothing in the doors either.

    Have a good look under the dash, I was amazed how much I pulled out of a car that I wrecked.
    This GR had heavier doors than the STI due to bigger intrusion bars.
    JRA assembly versus fuly imported?

    Graham

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    ...speaking about V6 engine I have P-505 hidraulic bellhousing for V6 engine ZN3J (2849ccm) for gearbox BA10.This bellhousing is puted out from 2nd serie P-505 V6 GTI year 1987.
    I have also one hydraulc and one cord bellhousig for engine ZEJ (1995ccm) for gearbox BA10.
    And also,I have one cord bellhousing for engine XN1 (1971ccm) for gearbox BA7.
    If somebody is interested I'll send him to Australia.
    Last edited by Vjeko; 25th July 2004 at 06:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vjeko
    ...speaking about V6 engine I have P-505 hidraulic bellhousing for V6 engine ZN3J (2849ccm) for gearbox BA10.This bellhousing is puted out from 2nd serie P-505 V6 GTI year 1987.
    I have also one hydraulc and one cord bellhousig for engine ZEJ (1995ccm) for gearbox BA10.
    And also,I have one cord bellhousing for engine XN1 (1971ccm) for gearbox BA7.
    If somebody is interested I'll send him to Australia.
    this sounds like a little bit of a goldmine for somone wanting to do a v6 conversion, what sort of cost would you be puting on sending these to one of us Vjeko?
    Last edited by orestes; 25th July 2004 at 06:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    this sounds like a little bit of a goldmine for somone wanting to do a v6 conversion, what sort of cost would you be puting on sending these to one of us Vjeko?
    I never sended in Austalia items in Australia so I mast ask the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vjeko
    I never sended in Austalia items in Australia so I mast ask the post.
    How much do you want to give for this bellhousing,you say the price and I'll give you for that price.With this bellhousing I'll give you fork and if I find I'll give you bearing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vjeko
    How much do you want to give for this bellhousing,you say the price and I'll give you for that price.With this bellhousing I'll give you fork and if I find I'll give you bearing.
    i have no idea what these are worth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vjeko
    How much do you want to give for this bellhousing,you say the price and I'll give you for that price.With this bellhousing I'll give you fork and if I find I'll give you bearing.
    Careful, the V6 bellhousing would be left hand drive.
    I know someone who is after a BA10 to ZEJ, I'll check with him.

    Graham Wallis

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