GTi180,lets get serious..
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Icon2 GTi180,lets get serious..

    Let me say first,i love my gti180,its a great little car.

    A little more horsepower wouldnt go astray tho .I know the regular routes have all kind of already been done by peugeot,so basically,what is possible?.

    Remove some baffle/silencer from the exhaust?.

    Pod intake?

    Powerchip? (yes i know they are usually full of shit,otherwise id already have one)

    Bite the bullet and just put the friggen thing on a dyno and play with its brains? ( i know its got very good mapping already,but peugeot have restrictions (emissions,noise etc) that aftermarket tuners dont.Maybe with a pod and 98 ron and a bit of a tinker there can be some gains?.

    Any ideas/advice?.It handles like a dream,i just want a little more power to play with now im used to it.

    Also,looking way down the track when the warranty runs out..low boost turbo to get it around 140-150 kw atw?.Any potential problems with the VVT in that respect?.

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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    My thoughts are the only way to get a decent increase is a new ECU and a fair bit of dyno time. That willremove some of the emission smarts that would be preventing some of the extra power. It got detuned not far away from it's release due to some changes required to meeitng Euro IV regs.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    i was going to post my opinion but deleted it to prevent controversy.

  4. #4
    Tadpole
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    Thats what ive been thinking too gti124.Its just alot of cash and i assume a voided warranty for unknown gains :/.And obviously if your going to do it then you have to get the pod and any other mods done before you start tinkering with it,and theres always the risk of the mechanic stuffing it up and causing damage..

    Does anyone on these forums have/know anyone who has fitted (well,had ecu reprogrammed) a powerchip to a 180?.Im sceptical about their claimed gains,not that i dont think its possible,just havent heard many good things about them and that they use very optimistic figures.145 kw and 226 nm and more power right thru the range would be a good deal for $990 if thats what you actually get and it doesnt void the warranty(?)...

    Would put the icing on the cake to have a bit more top end,and if their dyno sheet isnt fabricated it would have a much beefier torque curve.To good to be true?.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Their dyno sheets and figures are most definately fabricated. Have a look at specific torque/litre outputs of some highly tuned engines and you'll see that Powerchip have inflated (and humorous) figures.

    Why is it obvious that you need to have a pod? You're assuming that there are flaws with the standard intake. Do some testing before you automatically dismiss it. There is some pretty special technology used to create these intakes and you'd be a dill to muck with it.

  6. #6
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    A little more horsepower wouldnt go astray tho
    Man, how much power do you really need?? 133kW in a car that size is heaps. A few years ago Falcons and Commodores had less than that, from a ~4 litre six cylinder engine and a lot more weight.

    Just think, your car has almost twice the power of my 504!

    Just my two bob's worth!

    John
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    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  7. #7
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoju
    Thats what ive been thinking too gti124.Its just alot of cash and i assume a voided warranty for unknown gains :/.And obviously if your going to do it then you have to get the pod and any other mods done before you start tinkering with it,and theres always the risk of the mechanic stuffing it up and causing damage..

    Does anyone on these forums have/know anyone who has fitted (well,had ecu reprogrammed) a powerchip to a 180?.Im sceptical about their claimed gains,not that i dont think its possible,just havent heard many good things about them and that they use very optimistic figures.145 kw and 226 nm and more power right thru the range would be a good deal for $990 if thats what you actually get and it doesnt void the warranty(?)...

    Would put the icing on the cake to have a bit more top end,and if their dyno sheet isnt fabricated it would have a much beefier torque curve.To good to be true?.
    Of course you'll void your warranty. Of course there are unknown gains. If you wanted to tinker, you've really bought the wrong car. There's more you can do to a forced induction car than you can to a highly tuned NA car. Perhaps you should have fun with the 180 and buy yourself a RenaultSport Megane when it comes out.

  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    Having had a close look at it a few times they have definately done a good job.Its drawing cold air from the passenger side of the front spoiler with a very short path to the airbox.The only thing that makes me think a pod would flow any better is that the piping from the intake point behind the spolier to the airbox is smaller than the piping from the airbox to the engine,altho granted this is a pretty massive pipe and may be overkill.I agree a pod on its own would be pretty useless,a good aftermarket filter for the airbox is probably all thats required if anything.

    If i were getting it dyno tuned tho,i would get a pod.The intake is designed for the application,it definately seems to be able to provide enough flow in stock form,but once you start advancing the timing and dumping more fuel in it at high revs it may not be able to provide enough flow and choke the engine.You dont want to find this out when the car is on the dyno and your paying by the half hour :/.Better off just doing it first,its not that much of a job.The 3 inch hose can just go where the airbox was straight down to the spolier intake,just need some hose,a pod and some anchor points.Im sure it would not flow any WORSE than the closed airbox system,probably alot better,all depends if you can get the engine to make use of the extra flow as to wether or not it is worthwhile.Id just rather be safe than sorry.

    Also,the 180 would sound sweet with a open induction system

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoju
    The only thing that makes me think a pod would flow any better is that the piping from the intake point behind the spolier to the airbox is smaller than the piping from the airbox to the engine.
    This is designed to increase air velocity - not necessarily a restriction.

  10. #10
    Tadpole
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    I dont want that much power GTI124,otherwise i would have got a commodore/wrx/200sx.

    Its just the 180 would be a little weapon with a bit more stab.The rest of the car can handle it,140-145 kw would not overpower the chassis.Or maybe it will get a little better when its fully run in.I have modified all the cars ive owned to some degree,with my commodore it was the handling that got attention.The 180 is great,its quirky,unique,good looking,handles well,and it is fast.Id never mess with the suspension/lower it etc.But definately im interested in getting a bit more power out of it,considering what it cost,1 or 2 more grand getting the power up a bit is a small price to pay considering the difference it would make.I dont want it doing 12 second quarters,just a bit more to fully exploit the amount of grip the car has,punching out of second gear corners etc.

    Im just looking for what is possible,i dont have my mind set on anything atm,but the longer i have it the more tempted i get to start getting quotes

  11. #11
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoju
    Also,the 180 would sound sweet with a open induction system
    Lots of people kid themselves (and I'm certainly not referring to you) that they are "increasing horsepower" and yada yada by putting on a pod filter, but in the end, it seems to be all about the noise.

    It's got a great induction noise as it is (much louder than a 138 - but of course nowhere near as good as a GTi6 ). I had some guy from Brisbane who drives a 206CC tell me that I "had to put a pod on it, so that I could get mad induction noise."

    What a croc! Peugeot spent years (I know I was waiting for the damn thing) developing this car - why tinker with it? It goes up and down Reefton Spur quite nicely (which is an OK road....) as it is.
    Regards,

    Simon

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  12. #12
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    This is designed to increase air velocity - not necessarily a restriction.
    Like i said,might be fine in stock tune as part of the overall design to provide X amount of air to the engine.At the end of the day it is a restriction tho,the intake is only as good as its weakest link,the smaller pipe may be there for god knows what reason,i imagine it creates a vacuum at high revs but never enough to starve the engine of air.I know a pod with the 3 inch piping would flow more.Like i already said tho,if the engine doesnt need more air than the stock airbox can flow then a pod is utterly useless,besides the nice sound .

    I could fit a pod to betty tommorow in a hour for $80,its just not justified at the moment.Im not looking to get into a argument,i just thought more people would have modded their 180's and have advice/experiences,not attack me for wanting to try.

  13. #13
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Hoju, don't treat these comments as attacks, it's merely an open discussion.

    You osund like you've spent some time on a dyno, so maybe you can experiment for us and let us know of the results? We'd love to here how you go. Do a seach on air box and you'll see that we've talked about this a number of times, but that last discussion hasn't resulted in any results yet.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Whatever you do dont turbo it
    I reckon if you want to get serious put throtle bodies on it and some decent cams. Its already running 11 to 1 compression so the rest is easy (ish) although it would cost alot and void all warrenties)
    But maby do slight tampering with the air may get a little here and there but may be not worth it. Although its good to see someone trying

    Cam
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! blu180's Avatar
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    As I originally planned to build a 180 show car, I’ve spent a lot of time researching what can be done to a 180… this research included getting engine and brake specs prior to delivery.

    Through this I’ve found it hard to get any real answers to what can be done to improve horse power. The big issue is the computer.

    Yes you could add a turbo, but the computer will reject it… even with reprogramming. If a turbo was an option, the computer would have to be scrapped for an after market item. This would in turn cause other problems... and lots of them.

    The next option down was NOS. This is possible, but it would require a few intake mods and programming. This is because NOS would require a additional fuel jet in the air intake... this would need to be fitted in exactly the right spot and the computer would need to accept it.

    The next option is a ‘chip’… if someone can find one let me know.

    Then there’s re-graphing/programming the computer. I think most of the 180 owners now have the latest software upgrade as dealers are offering it on the first service. This will help a tad, but there are a few guys out there that claim they can program it to perform even better. This by-passes Peugeot’s emission and epa restrictions… (I’m going to give this a go when I feel I’ve found someone with an impeccable reputation)

    Bigger exhaust? This is a possible improvement, but also may do the opposite. The bigger the exhaust the less back pressure, and engines require a certain amount of back pressure to suit compression and induction levels. (I changed my back box to a straight through. I personally think it improved the car slightly, but not as I said slightly.

    “Originally Posted by Hoju
    Also,the 180 would sound sweet with a open induction system”

    An open air induction system in a 180 would reduce power dramatically. The heat under the bonnet of a 180, is very high… hot air is BAD. The standard induction box is reasonably ok, it insulates and ducts cold air from the front of the car. To improve this you could spend $600 – 900 on a nice new Pipercross kit. BUT if you don’t have the cash you could buy a Green Cotton Filter and wrap you induction box in Thermo Tape. Another option would be to use a WRC bonnet and modify the duct to come into the induction box with the top removed.

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    Of course the other consideration in doing lots of mods to a car is that you potentially kill the resale price. Cars with lots of mods will often struggle when it comes time to sell - the dealers won't touch them, and most buyers want a stock standard car that they know hasn't been frigged around with. I for one would never buy a highly modded car, and a friend of mine who's a wholesaler of luxury and euro cars says when he gets a phone call on something like a riced-up BMW, he bases his price on the standard price for the model, less $5k or more, to remove all the bodykits and other mods, and restore it back to original.

    When you add the cost of the mods, to the extra few grand you lose in resale, you actually end up paying a lot of money for a few extra kilowatts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pugrat
    Of course the other consideration in doing lots of mods to a car is that you potentially kill the resale price. Cars with lots of mods will often struggle when it comes time to sell - the dealers won't touch them, and most buyers want a stock standard car that they know hasn't been frigged around with. I for one would never buy a highly modded car, and a friend of mine who's a wholesaler of luxury and euro cars says when he gets a phone call on something like a riced-up BMW, he bases his price on the standard price for the model, less $5k or more, to remove all the bodykits and other mods, and restore it back to original.

    When you add the cost of the mods, to the extra few grand you lose in resale, you actually end up paying a lot of money for a few extra kilowatts.

    each to their own. I personally have never lost on doing up cars and feel that Peugeot didn't get it quite right when they built the 180. That damn lazy peugeot design team.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blu180
    Bigger exhaust? This is a possible improvement, but also may do the opposite. The bigger the exhaust the less back pressure, and engines require a certain amount of back pressure to suit compression and induction levels. (I changed my back box to a straight through. I personally think it improved the car slightly, but not as I said slightly.
    This is a complete misconception. The only types of engines that require backpressure are 2-strokes. They require backpressure to keep as much of the fresh fuel/air mix in the chamber from escaping out the exhaust port during the overlap period. Backpressure will always sap power out of a 4-stroke due to a % of the power being used to push the gases out. The reason an engine with too large a bore exhaust loses low end power is due to reduced gas velocity at low revs.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

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    Fellow Frogger! Marc's Avatar
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    Blu180 let us know when u' ve reprogramed the chip, the cost and the outcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    This is a complete misconception. The only types of engines that require backpressure are 2-strokes. They require backpressure to keep as much of the fresh fuel/air mix in the chamber from escaping out the exhaust port during the overlap period. Backpressure will always sap power out of a 4-stroke due to a % of the power being used to push the gases out. The reason an engine with too large a bore exhaust loses low end power is due to reduced gas velocity at low revs.
    You are correct about what back pressure is for a 2 stroke.. BUT Back pressure in a 4 stroke (car engine) isn't for what you've written above. It's to create a pressure difference in order to allow the burnt gasses to evacuate the bore and disperse out the exhaust at a quicker rate. The quicker this is the quicker the engine can go into its next cycle. Therefore more grunt!

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    Fellow Frogger! blu180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc
    Blu180 let us know when u' ve reprogramed the chip, the cost and the outcome.
    will do... as soon as I find someone that can guarantee it to work. I'm not paying anyone for a trial and error attempt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jester_fu
    Nice work.. BLU180. It's good to see someone else putting some thought into these potential mods rather than just doing them and claiming it goes better because of the mod.. as a justification to spending the money! Must be the engineer in you...
    thanks mate

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blu180
    You are correct about what back pressure is for a 2 stroke.. BUT Back pressure in a 4 stroke (car engine) isn't for what you've written above. It's to create a pressure difference in order to allow the burnt gasses to evacuate the bore and disperse out the exhaust at a quicker rate. The quicker this is the quicker the engine can go into its next cycle. Therefore more grunt!
    That's not called 'back-pressure', it's called Scavenging which is a function of exhaust manifold design to utilise the sound waves as well as the vacuum created by the momentum of the exiting exhaust gases out of the entire system which is why it's important to maximise the gas velocity.

    I see what you're saying though, but the problem is even heaps of exhaust shops quote 'back pressure' and equate it with restriction. With my previous car, I had to get the whole pipe, from the manifold back, replaced due to corrosion and the exhaust shop replaced it with a much bigger pipe. It lost a heap of power down low and when I complained, the mong at the shop suggested I replace the existing straight thru muffler with a baffled restrictive muffler and he quoted 'because it will increase back pressure and make it go harder down low'.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! matt205's Avatar
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    Well I was gonna leave this one alone, but I'm in a bad mood so here goes:

    First of all: Each to their own, and if people want to spend there money on mods with dubious claims then go for it. If you have fitted and reckon your Pod filter setup has given you 20hp then don't read on. I just wanted to add what I have learned from a number of years of experimenting, destroying and succeeding with Pug engines.

    I always find it bemusing when I read posts from Clio drivers wanting more power, I haven't driven a 180 yet but I'd be willing to bet that traction/handling wise it's no better than the Clio. I reckon the Clio has as much power as the standard setup can handle, any more and it will degenerate into an understeering, torque steering mess. The fix could be as simple as some stickier rubber, but I suspect the real answer is a diff. If you don't agree I reckon you need to look at modifying the nut that holds the steering wheel.

    There's been a similar thread going on about the Clio as well. My honest, and relatively educated opinion is this, forget it, leave it alone, make it stop better, make it corner better and give it some more grip, learn how to drive it and then maybe think about more power.

    That said given the job that Peugeot and likewise Renault have done with these engines they will be hard to improve on without spending BIG bucks (I'd estimate 15 - 30k) and serioulsy affecting reliabilty, you are simply wasting your time and hard earned.

    Pod filters are CRAP, even on older cars like the 205 they are CRAP, yep they make a nice sound but usually result in leaning out as the standard ECU can't deal with it, turning up the fuel mixture is not a fix, fitting a adjustable reg helps but is not a fix. I know as I've done all of this.

    Take your car along to track day, you'll soon see that it's biggest drawback (same for the Clio) is lack of grip under power through a corner. Again I speak from experience. So guess what happens when more power is applied to the front wheels? Sure you can control this with your right foot but what's the point?

    This is just as true for the old traffic light derby morons as well. HP and front wheel drive just don't mix well, it's a simple matter of weight transfer, what happens to the front of the car when you accelerate? the front lifts, what wheels are being driven? the fronts, less weight on the front wheels = less traction. So you add HP and then accelerate, what happens? the front lifts even more, even less weight on the front wheels = even less traction. Suspension will fix this but at what penalty to ride quality? By all accounts the 180 is a pretty stiff package as it is.

    If all your after is bragging rights with your mates take your car along to a Dyno facility and aske them to do some power runs and alter the drivetrain loss ratio, you too can have a 180kw 206...

    Someone enlighten me on how you dyno tune a car with a modern ECU? I think you could probably turn the fueling up to compensate for a CRAP pod filter, but this increases fueling across the board, potentially resulting in bore washing and major engine drama's. To seriously dyno tune a modern EFI car you'll need an aftermarket ECU.

    Nitorus Oxide is Illegal on a road car, and for good reason, it's dangerous stuff. If you run your car competitively down the quater go for it, but it's not as simple as running some pipes and strapping on the bottle, you WILL need an aftermarket ECU. Ask Darren (MYT205)

    Turbo, as per previous 2 paragraphs and guess what? You'll need an aftermarket ECU.

    Bigger pipes, both intake and exhaust, do not mean HP. Someone stated that putting a bigger bore intake will improve airflow, CRAP, bigger but the wrong shape will infact give you lower air speed and hence less air flow. Anyone doubting this needs to look at a well made intake manifold or an aftermarket one that works and look at the length and shape of the runners and the relationship to valve size and exhaust lengths. Do you really think engineers make this stuff up as they go along, particularly in performance based engines?

    For the money you would spend finding 30 or 40 HP you could buy a quicker "2nd" car, even a Peugeot if thats what you fancy. If you want a quarter mile machine buy this Oz fastest 1/4mile Pug 205 GTi - $10,000 the hard works been done, it's been built right and will likely be reliable, no warranty problems and if you throw it into the trees you've only done $10k. If you are interested in doing some track stuff then buy this 205 GTi Race Car same stuff applies. Those of us who regularly compete in motorsport events will tell you how much more rewarding driving to the limit and beyond is on a closed and safe race circuit.

    If you are still not satisfied then you need to re-evaluate your choice of car perhaps a WR-X or 200sx is more your style, easy to mod, easy to get big HP numbers and all relatively cheaply. I know which I'd prefer on a run up my favourite piece of twisty black stuff though.

    Flame away
    Regards,
    Matt
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    "Imagine watching the entire French Air-Force crash into a fireworks factory. That's how much fun this car is."

    Jeremy Clarkson - talking about the V6 Clio
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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I've also been holding back on this one, but I have to agree with what Matt has said, even though I've had a good day.

    To further exemplify this, consider the Wuillemin's 205Mi16. It has a "relativley" stock Mi16 engine. ie probably not much more hp than a GTi180. They are the leaders of the 205 pack in the Supersprint series, and would love to go faster, yet they aren't chasing hp. Their biggest problem is getting the power to the ground, yet they have a Peugeot Motorsport LSD and Yoko A032's. Doesn't that tell you something?

    If you want more hp in a GTi180, you're probably more of a traffic light driver, and like Matt said, would be better off with a Jap import. I personally wouldn't know where to start looking for hp in a GTi180, and I doubt many others would in Australia either. You'd have to strip it, analyse all the bits, then make carefull big $ decisions. One thing is for sure, you won't find any hp dicking around with the inlet or exhaust.

    If I owned one, I'd buy a Quaife and some sticky tyres.

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