404 ute - questions
  • Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Cooma
    Posts
    8

    Icon5 404 ute - questions

    undefinedundefinedundefined

    Hi,

    I'm looking at a 404 ute fitted with a 505 motor.

    Is this conversion legal for NSW?

    is there any way to check if the radiator has also been upgraded?

    Advertisement


    It has been fitted with front discs, probably from a later 404. This means it has 14 inch, 4 stud wheels on the front and 15 inch, 5 stud wheels on the rear. Did the 404 change from 15/5 to 14/4 at some stage? If so, when? Or, did the utes have 15 inch and the sedans 14 inch?

    Any help welcomed.

    Thanks
    Moses

  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Parkes - N.S.W - Australia - Earth
    Posts
    12,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses
    undefinedundefinedundefined

    Hi,

    I'm looking at a 404 ute fitted with a 505 motor.

    Is this conversion legal for NSW?

    is there any way to check if the radiator has also been upgraded?

    It has been fitted with front discs, probably from a later 404. This means it has 14 inch, 4 stud wheels on the front and 15 inch, 5 stud wheels on the rear. Did the 404 change from 15/5 to 14/4 at some stage? If so, when? Or, did the utes have 15 inch and the sedans 14 inch?

    Any help welcomed.

    Thanks
    Moses

    it is if the ute is pre compliance plate otherwise it may need an engineers certificate

    no 404's came with 14" wheels so i would say it would have 504 discs on the front end
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  3. #3
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    it is if the ute is pre compliance plate otherwise it may need an engineers certificate

    no 404's came with 14" wheels so i would say it would have 504 discs on the front end
    I'd almost guarantee the braking system hasn't been engineered properly as regards front to rear balance, compensator valve and line pressure valve location.
    I wouldn't worry about registration problems as far as the motor goes, who would know?

    Graham Wallis

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! 1pugnut's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    wollongong
    Posts
    442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses
    undefinedundefinedundefined

    Hi,

    I'm looking at a 404 ute fitted with a 505 motor.

    Is this conversion legal for NSW?

    is there any way to check if the radiator has also been upgraded?

    It has been fitted with front discs, probably from a later 404. This means it has 14 inch, 4 stud wheels on the front and 15 inch, 5 stud wheels on the rear. Did the 404 change from 15/5 to 14/4 at some stage? If so, when? Or, did the utes have 15 inch and the sedans 14 inch?

    Any help welcomed.

    Thanks
    Moses
    When I registed a 404 ute with a 504 ti 2 litre in it the lady at the RTA said
    these came out with a 1600 .My reply was no they came out with a 2 litre as well and she took my word for it .The front brakes would be off a early 504 all 404's had 15in rims, utes and wagons had 5 stud and sedans had 3 studs .
    For the back brakes you can change them to 4 stud as well you would have to find your self a 504 station wagon rear end ,if this is the blue 404 ute for sale in sydney you will have to cange the diff because it still has the 1600 ute diff in it.Have a look at rear wheel cylinders if it has 504 wagon cylinders
    they will be alright (they are smaller in diamiter than the 404 ute ones) if you want to leave it as it is.
    For the radiator have a look at the size of it the 404 radiator was very small
    and it fitted in very neatlly with the radiator support panel .When a bigger radiator has been fitted (a 504 or 505 radiator) you can see where the front radiator support panel has been cut to fit it in and increase the air flow
    I hope this helps, you can ring me on 0408426774 if you want to know more
    regards jamie

    series 2 405 mi16
    205 si
    series 1 205 gti
    series 3 205 with a gti6 motor project
    1970 404 ute 504 ti motor project
    parts cars 2 205 si's 306 sedan
    2004 206 gti180

  5. #5
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Cooma
    Posts
    8

    Icon9

    undefined

    Hi, I rang NSW RTA. Their cut off for larger engines without an enginers certificate is a 15% increase. 404 to 504/505 is a 21.8% increase, so an engineers certificate is needed.

    Likewise the brake change - engineers certificate is required. Having now seen the vehicle, I do not think I will persevere.

    Thanks for the advice that came in.

    Moses

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Phil Whitton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Bargo Sthn Highlands NSW
    Posts
    273

    Default

    Curious about the need for the engineer's cert for the brakes. My local bloke accepts the mod as it was from the sedan version ( & safer in his words). We had the ute registered for some years before I took it off the road without any problems.
    Hey Jamie Missed you at the Sydney day, Saw two nice utes so I have reference phots and some more contacts.

    Phil

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! 1pugnut's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    wollongong
    Posts
    442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses
    undefined

    Hi, I rang NSW RTA. Their cut off for larger engines without an enginers certificate is a 15% increase. 404 to 504/505 is a 21.8% increase, so an engineers certificate is needed.

    Likewise the brake change - engineers certificate is required. Having now seen the vehicle, I do not think I will persevere.

    Thanks for the advice that came in.

    Moses
    The 404 came out with a 1800 but it was a deisel they dont look at what fuel it uses but the size of the motor .It has never been an issue for me I have reregisterd 2ltrs in 404s with no problems. and I have never had to get a engineers report as for the brakes it is all bolt on
    I can't see why you would need a engineers report .There is no moderfing of any parts at all its like saying that if you put a disc brake rear end on s1 205 you would need a engineers report
    regards jamie

    series 2 405 mi16
    205 si
    series 1 205 gti
    series 3 205 with a gti6 motor project
    1970 404 ute 504 ti motor project
    parts cars 2 205 si's 306 sedan
    2004 206 gti180

  8. #8
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 1pugnut
    The 404 came out with a 1800 but it was a deisel they dont look at what fuel it uses but the size of the motor .It has never been an issue for me I have reregisterd 2ltrs in 404s with no problems. and I have never had to get a engineers report as for the brakes it is all bolt on
    I can't see why you would need a engineers report .There is no moderfing of any parts at all its like saying that if you put a disc brake rear end on s1 205 you would need a engineers report
    regards jamie
    Only the 1974 South African 404 had an 1800 motor.
    To fit the brakes properly you need to remove the line pressure valve from the master cylinder, fit a disc brake 4 way union (the one on the front cross member) this has a line pressure valve for the rear cylinders, fit a booster, fit some sort of pressure limiting valve, fit 504 wagon rear brakes to get an acceptable front rear balance.
    In my opinion an expert should check to see that this is in place. I have seen many disc brake "conversions" where virtually none of this has been done and the braking performance left much to be desired.

    Graham Wallis
    Graham Wallis

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Parkes - N.S.W - Australia - Earth
    Posts
    12,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 1pugnut
    The 404 came out with a 1800 but it was a deisel they dont look at what fuel it uses but the size of the motor .It has never been an issue for me I have reregisterd 2ltrs in 404s with no problems. and I have never had to get a engineers report as for the brakes it is all bolt on
    I can't see why you would need a engineers report .There is no moderfing of any parts at all its like saying that if you put a disc brake rear end on s1 205 you would need a engineers report
    regards jamie

    yes that's true but they have to look at what was sold here not overseas

    the other thing hardly anyone ever has a problem with 404's and larger engines but if something should ever happen and it is found that the engine was more than 15% larger then you are in deep doo doo
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts cruiserman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    1,290

    Default

    The major issue with dodging the system is when you run into the back of the hey un day excel and kill the kid in the back. The insurance company (read robbers) will run far away from you and you will be left with the consequences and litigation payout. Enjoy
    Neil
    '94 405 SRBT

    '82 CX 2400 Pallas 5spd

    '77 CX 2400 Pallas 4spd manual Import

    '76 CX Super

    '05 WL Statesman

    '92 HZJ80 Landcruiser

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Phil Whitton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Bargo Sthn Highlands NSW
    Posts
    273

    Default

    Interesting feedback for discussion.

    We are talking here of 404 ute conversions. The complete front end from the sedan is interchangeable complete with struts and discs.
    There is no limiting valve that I can find on either of mine ( one being original) however I have one on the sedan rear. The swept area of the ute is about 225sqmm per shoe. This gives more than adequate braking on the rear. When the Bitch was in employment it travelled many times into and out from Kangaroo Valley with the in trip usually loaded with building materails and nary a problem experienced although somethimes the brakes did provide warmth on a winter morning.

    I'll keep the idea of the limiting valve in mind when I do the pressure test.

    PJW

  12. #12
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Whitton
    Interesting feedback for discussion.

    We are talking here of 404 ute conversions. The complete front end from the sedan is interchangeable complete with struts and discs.
    There is no limiting valve that I can find on either of mine ( one being original) however I have one on the sedan rear. The swept area of the ute is about 225sqmm per shoe. This gives more than adequate braking on the rear. When the Bitch was in employment it travelled many times into and out from Kangaroo Valley with the in trip usually loaded with building materails and nary a problem experienced although somethimes the brakes did provide warmth on a winter morning.

    I'll keep the idea of the limiting valve in mind when I do the pressure test.

    PJW

    There won't be one as the ute had drums all round and they were balanced with each other. If you fit discs on the front then a booster, the rears will have MORE than adequate braking, the discs need more hydraulic pressure than the drums.
    If you don't fit a booster the brakes may feel OK but you will find that most of the braking is on the rear.
    You can use a limiting valve from a 200 series Volvo or buy an aftermarket item.
    You need to take the line pressure valve out of the master cylinder as this will tend to keep the front discs locked on. You will then need the line pressure valve for the rear or you may find it hard to get a good pedal. This is located in the 4 way union on the cross member (disc braked sedans only).

    Graham Wallis

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •