Remus vs Devil
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Thread: Remus vs Devil

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! 30780Y's Avatar
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    Default Remus vs Devil

    Hi Pug lovers
    Just wondering which would be a better exhaust for my pug...... a Remus or Devil...... also is it worth it??? Does it really have a difference in performance??? Where is a good place to do a quote for it???

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    Tadpole pug180's Avatar
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    Hey there,

    Getting more air in, and letting more exhaust out is always better for your engine. Whether its worth it..........well thats personal and depends on how much you are willing to spend.

    I am crazy and would spend $1000 for a good sound

    What car do you have now??? - if it is stock then a CATBack will help (marginally) with performance and give a great sound. if you have a Gti 180, no need, already great exhaust.

    Not sure of difference between Devil and Remus - both are good I'd expect.

    Hope this helps.

    '04 206 GTi 180

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    It's a 307... not a sporty car.
    I don't think family cars look or sound good with a sports exhaust A 307 with one would remind me of the Toyota Tarago that buzzes around work here with a 1kg Nescafe Blend 43 coffee tin of a back "muffler".

    Derek

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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pug180
    Getting more air in, and letting more exhaust out is always better for your engine. Whether its worth it..........well thats personal and depends on how much you are willing to spend.
    'Letting' more exhaust out? I'm pretty mechanically....well.....stupid so you'll need to explain this to me more.

    Why would Peugeot spend huge amounts of money in R&D on an extractor system that 'extracts' waste and then conveniently forget to let it all out at the other end? I can't work this out.

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    From what i've read on the forum I understand that with cars like the 307 (ie. not the sports cars like the 180) the designers have to find a balance between high quality/performance parts, and price... so on a car like the 307 they're going to opt for the cheaper exhaust system which doesn't flow as freely as that on the 180, but is much cheaper, cos this is what the market will appreciate. Whereas, on the 180, the priority is an exhaust that flows very well, and the fact that it costs more is not too important (although the car still managed to come out with a great price tag IMHO).
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    Tadpole pug180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    'Letting' more exhaust out? I'm pretty mechanically....well.....stupid so you'll need to explain this to me more.

    Why would Peugeot spend huge amounts of money in R&D on an extractor system that 'extracts' waste and then conveniently forget to let it all out at the other end? I can't work this out.

    The answer is Noise Restrictions (and emissions) - Car companies put more restrictive systems in to comply with Country specific standards. - and as was described in the earlier post - Cost..

    Hope this helps.
    '04 206 GTi 180

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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    You didn't actually answer the question.

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    Tadpole pug180's Avatar
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    Ummmm......I think the explaination that Clandestino and myself gave pretty much sums it up...sorry I can't think of any other reasons.
    '04 206 GTi 180

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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    You bring up cost as a factor in restrictive mufflers. Why then, does the manufacturer spend massive amounts of R&D developing magic extractors for these motors, only to have an accountant stick some sort of restriction on the other end? Wheres the benefit?

    I just don't buy it.

    I think these systems are much better designed and built to a much higher standard than you give them credit for. I think the cost issues are negated by mass producing a superior unit. This is simple economics.

    I think Remus is pulling your pud. By all means go out and make your exhaust sound different, but don't go making assumptions on the engineering merit of what is already there.

    The same logic goes for intakes. There is just an absolutely incredible amount of engineering involved to get these intake manifolds to create positive intake pressure. For what possible reason would they jeapordise this with a supposedly restrictive filter?

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    Tadpole pug180's Avatar
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    "where's the benefit?"

    There is no benefit....that's the point of changing the muffler for performence and sound (but as I said it is only a slight increase which normally needs other mods to help).

    The Stock mufflers are engineered for Noise suppression, for this to happen they must be more restrictive to flow. - I am sure they are engineered well, but they are simply more restrictive - that's all.
    '04 206 GTi 180

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    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
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    I'd say either the Remus or the Devil would give you the same performance benefit. None!

    The only reason you'd do it is if you like the sound and attracting attention to yourself and your driving.

    My old car had a loud exhaust and I was always getting pulled over for little things and being "chatted" by the cops. Since I got my GTi I havent been pulled over once.

    The other thing I found is that on a long drive you very quickly tire of the droning sound that tends to resonate from the large milo tins.
    Murray : And there are flames coming from the back of Prost's car as he enters the swimming pool!
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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pug180
    The Stock mufflers are engineered for Noise suppression, for this to happen they must be more restrictive to flow. - I am sure they are engineered well, but they are simply more restrictive - that's all.
    Thats a common myth. It's quite easy these days with modern technology and sufficient funding to design a free-flowing and quiet exhaust. Joe Blow down the road won't be able to manage it, but the manufacturer can.

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    Fellow Frogger! 30780Y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKa
    It's a 307... not a sporty car.
    I don't think family cars look or sound good with a sports exhaust A 307 with one would remind me of the Toyota Tarago that buzzes around work here with a 1kg Nescafe Blend 43 coffee tin of a back "muffler".

    Derek
    is an XSi so is sort of sporty....... i just very dislike the little tiny exhaust now

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    Fellow Frogger! 30780Y's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gti138
    I'd say either the Remus or the Devil would give you the same performance benefit. None!

    The only reason you'd do it is if you like the sound and attracting attention to yourself and your driving.

    My old car had a loud exhaust and I was always getting pulled over for little things and being "chatted" by the cops. Since I got my GTi I havent been pulled over once.

    The other thing I found is that on a long drive you very quickly tire of the droning sound that tends to resonate from the large milo tins.
    But i fink a remus or devil exhaust isnt meant to be as loud as other exhaust

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    'The same logic goes for intakes. There is just an absolutely incredible amount of engineering involved to get these intake manifolds to create positive intake pressure. For what possible reason would they jeapordise this with a supposedly restrictive filter?' as per Macquered.

    I'm pretty sure that time and time again its been proven that changing your stock filter to an aftermarket one and installing a more free-flowing exhaust does actually increase performance in many if not most cars. While the improvement will be minimal, it is still an improvement. Filters that are more restrictive probably cost less to make (if you are making 10,000 of them) as the materials aren't as fine or as engineered. So, for Peugeot to find a good balance between cost and flow they have to draw the line somewhere... if every part on a 307 (as was the topic car of this thread) was of the highest design/material quality, and I mean the absolute highest, the car would be ridiculously expensive. Eg. a Rolls Royce.
    Plus... surely they know how much fun it is to modify a car
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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Do two dyno runs. One with the filter in and one without. Then take your muffler off and try again then.

    Report back here with the results.

    Thanks for the tip about Rolls Royce. I had no idea they had amazing, expensive, low restriction filters. I must get me one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gti138
    I'd say either the Remus or the Devil would give you the same performance benefit. None!

    well that goes to show how much home work you have done... none....
    you get around 2 to 4 hp from a rear muffler and better torque due to better flow from down low...


    The only reason you'd do it is if you like the sound and attracting attention to yourself and your driving.

    well the devil is only 10% louder than standard.. and passes tuv rules..


    My old car had a loud exhaust and I was always getting pulled over for little things and being "chatted" by the cops. Since I got my GTi I havent been pulled over once.

    your not driving it hard enough....




    The other thing I found is that on a long drive you very quickly tire of the droning sound that tends to resonate from the large milo tins.
    well the experince i have had with devil, is you wind down the windows, and you hear it... wind them up and it is nothing different from standard.....
    regards paul.

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    Tadpole pug180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    Do two dyno runs. One with the filter in and one without. Then take your muffler off and try again then.

    Report back here with the results.

    Thanks for the tip about Rolls Royce. I had no idea they had amazing, expensive, low restriction filters. I must get me one of them.

    Ok..Ok

    We all know its about marketing. Car companies will always sell more cars if the make quiet systems (intake and exhaust). Those who want loud ones will still buy the cars and then mod them...........sounds like good business sense to me.
    '04 206 GTi 180

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    Quote Originally Posted by 30780Y
    is an XSi so is sort of sporty....... i just very dislike the little tiny exhaust now
    This is not really true. The 307 XSi is the same car as the 307 XSE, but with 3 doors not 5 and 17" wheels not 16" wheels. It has the same engine, same suspension, same exhaust. Yes, it looks a little different.

    In previous Peugeot models, the XSi was a good compromise between a sporty car and an upmarket shopping trolley. The 306 XSi for example had the 2L engine, Peugeot Sport suspension, 15" wheels, ABS brakes with EBFD and sports seats when at the time, the 306 XT had a 1.8L engine, standard suspension and 14" wheels. Yes, late in the 306 XT's run, it got the 2L engine, but it didn't get all the other trimmings.

    All in all I agree with macquered - too much money has been invested in intakes and exhausts to go spending money changing it, unless you want to attract attention to yourself.

    Derek

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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    Do two dyno runs. One with the filter in and one without. Then take your muffler off and try again then.

    Report back here with the results.

    Thanks for the tip about Rolls Royce. I had no idea they had amazing, expensive, low restriction filters. I must get me one of them.
    Come on dude, i'm just trying to answer your question as best I can. The Rolls Royce example was just to better illustrate a point.
    I reckon your technical knowledge is better than you first made out anyway
    White S3 205 GTi

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    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    .....Although I agree with most of what macquered has said...it must be noted (I m asuming)that with any given design or product THERE MUST BE some kind of restrictions on the designers....

    If we take the exhaust as an example (by peugeot)...I think we can assume that the peugeot system will be much better than lets say a hyndai job....?....It might even be better than some dearer marque.....So, the question begs,...Why? I suppose the answer would be R&D and a certain passion which could just as easily relate to the suspension or chassis design...Isn t this the reason why we like these cars...ie...we bellieve we r getting solid design quality and reasonable build quality.....

    That said.....improvemnts are always taking place and it would be foolish to assume that designers are always DELIVERING the best product for the money...ie we ve all heard about tacky plastics and built quality etc...Or simply consider the weight of some genuine steel wheels with some of the aftermarket lightweights...

    Another example would be the s16 extractors compared to GTi6 extractors.....
    Why didn t the s16 get these????...Did it need them? dont know? Were they capable of designing and building the same unit for the s16?I believe so....

    Fact of the matter is (coming from a differnt kind of designer)...THERE are always RESTRICTIONS of some kind; wether it be cost, fit, servicing, emmisions etc etc.....What it comes to is HOW well the two groups (genuine and aftermarket) solve a given problem......So in regards to aftermarket exhaust for a pug (in this case)...i believe the restrictions(re design breif) are OBVIOUSLY different hence a more noisy aftermarket system(although much more attractive aesthetically to certain clientele)...This however (imo) does not mean that aftermarket cannot do better nor does it mean that it can compete with the power of a conglomerate that is peugeot.....Its up to u ultimately....put your money in what u trust....or be different (nothing wrong here) and experiment...maybe to find satisfaction (for given needs) or distress
    if product replaced fails miserably....

    So, yes I agree with macquered but I think the opposing views do have much merit,...I just dont think the aftermarket options (re exhaust and suspension) are as succesull to pugs as they may be to boosted applications such as GTiR wrx 200sx etc etc....This market has been influencing the WRONG segment for 2 long....



    cheers


    dino



    ...this reminds me of the old HONDA nsx story...apparently the designers were litterally given a BLANK cheque...there was no cost limit...Honda wanted to make a rival ferrari......Did they succeed....NO (well to a certain extent)....Were they capable of doing a better job than ferrari....I dont think so...nsx speaks for itself....
    Than there was the one behind the creation of the DeTomaso....but I ll get to that some other time....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKa
    This is not really true. The 307 XSi is the same car as the 307 XSE, but with 3 doors not 5 and 17" wheels not 16" wheels. It has the same engine, same suspension, same exhaust. Yes, it looks a little different.

    In previous Peugeot models, the XSi was a good compromise between a sporty car and an upmarket shopping trolley. The 306 XSi for example had the 2L engine, Peugeot Sport suspension, 15" wheels, ABS brakes with EBFD and sports seats when at the time, the 306 XT had a 1.8L engine, standard suspension and 14" wheels. Yes, late in the 306 XT's run, it got the 2L engine, but it didn't get all the other trimmings.

    All in all I agree with macquered - too much money has been invested in intakes and exhausts to go spending money changing it, unless you want to attract attention to yourself.

    Derek
    Do u think changing the exhaust will improve the performance........

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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I think on a 307 there could be some benefits to be found, considering the same engine is used in the GTI 180 (albiet with a fair number of mods). Any proven modification on the 206 GTI can be applied to the 307 engine. I think a Devil or Remus on it's own won't give you much, but a full system may give you some benefits....normally at the sacrifice of low end torque.

    A big problem with the 307 is the sloppy throttle response and I'm of the opinion that it needs all the low down torque it can get. But, if low end response means little to you and you're up revving high in the band a fair bit, a new full exhaust should give you a little something.

    Just don't expect the world is what a lot of us are saying here. A 2L engine has a peak of around 100kw in normal trim, and around 130kw in performance trim. We've been here for a while and I doubt we're moving anywhere soon.

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    i put a remus muffler in my 306 stlye a few years ago

    i pick up a little bit more power but i lost some top end power aswell the remus mufflers sound really good i love it,but after 7months i look it off and got exhurst from the cat back,the remus cost me $650 and sold it for $150.the exhurst from the cat back cost my $760
    over all the remus is only good for the sound
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    you guys.....
    gone of the days of going to the muffler shop down the road and getting them to put a cat back on... this usally makes the car noiser and you lose power due to loosing back presure as they have wack on the bigest pipe you can due to thinking, if it breathes better = power... well the truth is you should not go over the pipe size in the middle of the car... ie 2.5 ish inches... over this causes back presure problems which then gives you poor low down torque....
    the devil mufflers which we have fitted are mostly as quite as standard depending on what type they are... either way they are desighed to give best preformances on a dyno while not increasing noise...
    on 206 gti's we get around 4ish hp and a lot more down low torque
    regards paul.

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